Ringing Forums

the people who post here - it seems to me that they spend at least as much time thinking about ringing as they spend doing it — John de Overa

We are a very biased sample. It's hardly surprising that a discussion list attracts people who think about things, and the subset who make comments have clearly thought about them enough to form a view they feel worth passing on.
Also bear in mind the relatively high entry bar to these discussions - first you have to make the effort to subscribe to the forum and then you have to be interested enough to check it periodically. Compare that with the email lists where once you have subscribed everything gets delivered to you, whether or not you have already commented on the topic, and the even lower bar of the Facebook groups where stuff gets fed to you without the need to express any interest.

I don't think anyone starts with a goal of being distinctly mediocre — John de Overa

I'm sure they don't. They might start with an ambition only to do modest things but I doubt that thought that they would never fully master them would not enter their minds - a bit like the difference between aiming to climb a small hill so you can stand on the top and admire the view having expended modest effort but finding yourself part way up a scree slope where it's a continual effort.

I agree about the need for a continuum from initial learning through coached development to self driven / peer supported development. That lifelong perspective was the guiding philosophy whe we wrote The New Ringer's Book, and it's something I try to impart to everyone I come into contact with.
But I think that's a bit tangential to the thrust of Linda's book, which is that the early stages of learning can lay the ground for developing change ringing, and that if they aren't, as is often dine, later progression to competent change ringing is made difficult if not impossible.

That's a variant I haven't met before. The wedge enables it to fit the inside of the bell while sitting against the clapper ball. Where I learnt to ring we had internal clapper stays but they had to be pushed up to fit the inside of the bell, and keeping them there relied on a tight grip on the clapper. Where I ring now we have clapper stays with lugs that fit over the lip of the bell and don't therefore need a tight fit on the clapper shaft. See: http://jaharrison.me.uk/thb/6-4.html#6-4i

it's worth looking at The Road to Ringiing, reviewed in last week's RW. They are based on Linda's own teaching practice, developed over a number of years.

there are many places where ringers are able to provide service ringing for several churches because the service times are different at each church. Assuming that special services are held at the same times as normal services that shouldn't be a problem.
Where it would be less easy is where services are at different churches on different weeks, presumably in joint beneficent where the priest is shared between them. Maybe they would have Harvest on different weeks too, but I don't know how they (priest or ringers) cope at Easter or Christmas.
I think practice augmentation and supporting service ringing are different. At a prazctice you need a greater number to stretch and develop people whereas service ringing just requires enough to ring something, which can, and probably should, be less stretching.

presumably you got some sort of distribution around that, however crude and approximate. That would be interesting to see.

I didn't comment on what was or wasn't 'achievable in many towers'. And I didn't say you 'had to be' a competent method ringer to teach basic bell control. But I find it hard to see how anyone who is not a competent method ringer, at least of basic methods, can hope to teach method ringing. I accept the idea of the teacher being a few pages ahead in the book (but that assumes the teacher is learning somewhere else to stay ahead) and more significantly it depends on what book. Anyone teaching wobbly plain hunt by the numbers is in the wrong book for teaching competent method ringing.

I think part of that requires that the wider ringing community accepts that you don't need to be a Spliced Surprise Major peal ringer to teach people Pain Hun — John de Overa

I don't recall anyone saying teachers must tring Surprise. Certainly advanced method ringing isn't a requirement to be as competent teacher of bell control, but I suspect that most competent bell control tutors (outside Devon call change towers) are at least competent ringers of basic methods. And I would be very sceptical about anyone who wasn't a competent method ringer teaching the rudiments of method ringing (hunting, dodging, place making, speed changes).

we have to be realistic about where we are now — John de Overa

Where we are now is not sustainable. That's the problem.

one of the strengths of ringing is exactly that span of ages — John de Overa

Agreed. But the span isn't the problem, it's the distribution. And it's not just that we will lose the majority of ringers over the next few decades and we can't replace them like for like. Recruiting more retirees might replace the retirees who learnt 10 or 20 years ago but it won't replace the mass of skilled ringers with 50 or 60 years of experience who play a dominant part in keeping everything going.

"New ringer" undersells it I think, there's material in there that's still very relevant after the initial stages. — John de Overa

The idea was that you get it when you are new (and that it is yours, not the tower's, hence the careful positioning of the apostrophe). But unlike previous books aimed at learners, it was intended to guide through the whole of the development process, and it specifically offered a vision of the rest of a potentially fullfilling ringing career.

I don't know whether all university societies have a one time subscription, but nine are affiliated with over 1100 members between them. Other societies that probably do are the professional societies but only two are affiliated with under 200 members between them. I suspect some of the semi or non territorial societies might also have a one-time subscriiption.

lots available online but it tends to be fairly advanced — John de Overa

There's plenty of basic stuff too. The problem is that new ringers aren't either fed it or encouraged to look for it. They are encouraged to accept the limited info they are given within the small tower bubble where they find themselves.

For example how to break down and actually learn methods, the importance of the treble - basically "The Dummy's Guide to Method Ringing" — John de Overa

Yes that's important but there is so much more than just 'how to' learn and ring them. How are the structured, how do they work, how do compositions work, how did methods evolve, and lots more.
When we wrote The New Ringer's Book our goal was to provide information they might not be told, in a way that would help them whether they had been taught well or not, and by whatever approach. As well as the skill based stuff there's a lot in it to lead them onto other things.
Every new ringer should have a copy (and I believe every student at the BSB has one as part of their pack) but those most in need are in towers that won't give it to them, or even tell them about it.

there's some interesting stuff there, with clear reference to ringing. But I think this, and many of the comments on the parent thread about peal ringing, misses the point by homing in on 'teaching' alone. There is plenty of scope to improve the way the skills of ringing are taught, but that's not enough on its own.
For people to develop into long term, capable, ambitious ringers who will make a positive contribution to ringing, they need to absorb the ethos of what ringing is about and a sense of being part of something bigger - of the wider ringing community and of the tradition and future of ringing. They also need to absorb a sense of the many different facets of ringing.
They don't get that from LTR, or from how they are taught to handle a bell, or from learning the mechanics of hunting. They absorb it in the way that any culture is acquired, from the people they come into contact with, notably other ringers.
If they are surrounded by ringers of low skill, low ambition and limited horizons then that is the culture they will absorb. And having absorbed it they will become part of it and help spread it to others. Once a band gets to that point it is very difficult for anyone to escape, given the lack of either opportunities or inspiration to do more. They will assume that 'this is what ringing is like' and either go with the flow or give up because it doesn't give the opportunity, challenge and satisfaction that they need.

my suspicion would be that underestimates numbers at the lower levels. — John de Overa

How low do you want to go? Our branch has pretty well 100% membership and the 2017 survey into the state of ringing showed 30% of members were inactive, ie they never or hardly ever rang.

Membership varies. In some places most ringers do belong to their local societies and in others they don't. However I suspect that overall it is high enough for generalisations about society members to apply to ringers in general.

In the main, district RMs don't take on that role. — Phillip George

That might be true, but I didn't claim they all do, I said it was somethimng they ought to be in a position to do. While the 'doing' part of an RM's job might be running the ringing at district events, doing that effectivley entails understanding the needs and capabilities of the participants.

When I was taught my teacher was my mentor and arranged my first QPs and peals — Phillip George

Yes, that's the ideal, and the way we do it. But anyone with such a mentor wouldn't be in the situation being discussed in this thread.

This should not restrict a ringer from making their own decisions — Phillip George

Agreed. That's what we did, with the band almost all firsts in both cases, but such self starters aren't in the position being discussed either.

I didn't make an assumption, I made an assertion about what a branch ringing master 'should' be able to do, because he/she would know the capability of someone, and also of local opportunities.
If ringing in an area is in such poor health that the district RM could not play such a role then it seems unlikely that anyone would have advanced to the point of being ready for a peal.

It might be possible to mine BellBoard to find the average ringing history of first time pealers, e.g. how many QPs had they rung in the year before their first peal. You might then be able to use that to identify potential first-time pealers. — John de Overa

Mining BellBoard is a useful way to gather information about overall patterns (but I think it wouldbe quite hard to find out how many quarters first pealers had rung). You could do it for an individual but the best way to identify individuals who could benefit from the opportunity to ring a peal is by personal contact. A district ringing master should be aware of people who could be encouraged to ring peals, especially those from towers where the local, band doesn't ring peals.

Noise - are there more concerns about disturbing a neighbourhood and is there less acceptance of 3hours of ringing? — Alison Hodge

I doubt that's a factor. Peals only account for a few percent of the hours of ringing each year, and although they are longer stretches they are generally better ringing than a lot of practices and service ringing.