Ringing Forums

It might be worth asking how they like to learn or how they tackle new challenges in other parts of life.
Some people are perfectionists and hate doing anything they can’t get 100% right first time. Others like to read about it or watch a video or talk it through in detail before trying it. Some can only learn from doing but might need time in one to one sessions to feel safe about the time it takes to learn the technique. Without knowing what stage they are it’s hard to provide detailed advice but starting by asking them how they tackle learning something new at work or in sports / music etc might give you some idea of what they find difficult about getting it wrong at a bellringing practice (with the emphasis on practice, where everyone gets it wrong at least some of the time!).
I think there was something in the Ringing World a couple of years ago about how hard it can be for adult learners to enjoy learning something where they will make mistakes and struggle, somehow we forget how to be relaxed about learning by failing (and some people have always found that really hard).

Thank you Lucy.

Lucy’s point about adults being uncomfortable with things they can’t do well is true. Youngsters ‘learn things for a living’ as Phil Gay once said, but as they grow older they give up what they aren’t good at and only do things they are (reasonably) good at. For most people the last physical skill they learn is driving, in their late teens.
I remember being very frustrated and disappointed trying to learn hang gliding in my mid 30s. I expected to to be as natural as cycling but it wasn’t and I kept doing the wrong things. In the end I gave up (probably a good thing given the accident rate).
In your case I think you need to unpack what’s behind ‘I can’t do it’, which could mean two different things.
It could be if it is a simple statement that the keel ant skill/knowledge/knack is absent then the way forward is to work with them to identify what is missing and try to find explanations and exercises that could help to fill them.
Alternatively it might be an escape message, like the day I stood at the top of the hill without the courage to make a flight because I didn’t have confidence in my ability to fly safely. In your case it’s obviously not as safety fear, since he/she is willing to ring, but it could be a fear of failing to make whatever improvement step you are asking to be attempted because it feels impossible. If that is so you need to find out why and try to find a way round it or to break it down.
Either way with an adult you need to work together to find out what the problem really is. What is ‘it’ that can’t be done? Then explore the problem and find ways round it. You might need to come at it from different directions rather than straight on.
Good luck.

Thank you John

Thank you for the advice.
In case it helps people to give further advice, the lady can ring plain hunt well (by counting places), but the sticking points are: moving on to methods and acquiring ropesight.
She explains, for example, "I have too much else going on at the moment", or "I can only do things the way I can do them", or "I just want to ring for fun".
She becomes upset if I say, for example, "you were ringing too fast and so were in the wrong place when you dodged, even though you thought you were in the right place".
I guess she thinks - "I didn't want to do this anyway, but you made me do it and now you criticise me for not being able to do it".
So I guess I just have to accept that she's a volunteer, and let her do only what she wants, how she wants.
But this goes against my understanding that it is my job to develop the skills both of individual ringers and also of the band.

. can ring plain hunt well (by counting places) — Barbara Le Gallez

That's positive. I assume you mean she doesn't (consciously) follow a remembered sequence of ropes. If she can do that well then she must know where she should be, and she has a sense of going quicker or slower to get there. And if she really can ‘do it well’ she must have developed the ability to hear that she is fitting in ok.
It shouldn’t be too onerous a step to extend that to things like continuous dodging or repeated place making, and then to treble dodge hunting.

I can only do things the way I can do them — Barbara Le Gallez

That seems ok if it works.

I just want to ring for fun — Barbara Le Gallez

Ok, have fun making small steps

you were ringing too fast and so were in the wrong place when you dodged — Barbara Le Gallez

It’s better to focus on the positive and what to do rather than on the negative or what not to do, so start with that first as an introduction to any correctives. For example (assuming you are talking about hunting down):
Think how she got to be in the wrong place, did she leave the back too soon, hint down too fast, miscount and mentally arrive at the dodge a blow later than she should? In each case you can give positive advice, eg: Make sure you stay both blows at the back before starting to come down. Make a gentler speed change so you come down at the right pace. Remember you arrive at the dodge on a handstroke and take the reverse step on the backstroke.
That can be followed by describing the the pitfalls to avoid, eg arriving too low to do the dodge.
I’m assuming small numbers, but on 8 (or more) things often go wrong on the way down, of which the learner is unaware but which scupper their attempt to be in the right place. For example backstrokes often tend to revert to rounds speed, forcing an excessive correction at handstroke, which destabilises things.
Try to observe closely what she actually does, at the fine scale, which might enable you to suggest ‘try to … as you …’. And then work together to see if she can learn to do them, or at least become aware of that aspect of what she does.
Sorry a lot of words. Hard to know what might help in the abstract without actually seeing.

As a "late starter" myself and as someone who is trying to help others climb up the hill behind me, I think the advice in the posts so far is excellent and aligns with my experience and observations. A couple of comments:

Lucy’s point about adults being uncomfortable with things they can’t do well is true. — John Harrison

This is absolutely right, but does vary from person to person - some adults are fine with it. And I think it depends on context, for example 1:1 sessions on a simulator can help give build confidence when doing it "for real" in a practice.

the sticking points are: moving on to methods and acquiring ropesight — Barbara Le Gallez

I think it's easy to underestimate just how big a jump it is from PH to even PB - the learner's Facebook groups are full of despondent ringers who have been stuck there for a long time. Multiple new skills are needed, particularly as most learners ring PH by bell number, even if they claim they don't. They have to simultaneously learn to count places, remember a method, develop ropesight and up their bell control for dodging. Anything you can do to help break that down into smaller steps will help them. In particular, endless failed attempts at PB just make things worse. We wouldn't expect someone learning an instrument to do it by playing in a performance, but in effect that's how ringing is usually taught.

If she can do that well then she must know where she should be, and she has a sense of going quicker or slower to get there. ... It shouldn’t be too onerous a step to extend that to things like continuous dodging or repeated place making, and then to treble dodge hunting. — John Harrison

We've had a lot of success with that approach, for example getting people to ring the front/back work of Double Oxford Bob, but in 3/4 rather than at the front/back, pairing them with an experienced ringer whilst the rest of the band rings rounds, then moving them to the front, and so on. Ringing the standard 2-courses-of-PBD-a-week they'd get to do 4 dodges, this way they get 6 in one short shot, and you can repeat until they are comfortable. We also use Minimus methods a lot, with 2 covers so the handling is easier. That's great for helping people develop ropesight as they only have to consider 3 other bells.

Think how she got to be in the wrong place, did she leave the back too soon, hint down too fast, miscount and mentally arrive at the dodge a blow later than she should? — John Harrison

One problem I've seen is that people can be adamant that they are counting places but what they are actually counting is pulls, pulls that don't actually correspond to places. I think standing with them and doing what what John suggests might help?

Thank you John and John.

people can be adamant that they are counting places — John de Overa

People can also be thinking about places but where they are bears no relation. The ‘overheard’ story in this episode of The Learning. Curve was based on a real incident. https://cccbr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/200305.pdf

I now realise that the question I should have asked was "How to MOTIVATE a ringer who has reached a plateau and wishes to stay there, and becomes stressed when I guide her towards the next ascent?".
So, valuable though your technical advice is, this is really a person-management query.
The obvious answer is "Don't try" - trying to do so will merely result in unhappy practice nights and sooner or later she will walk away.
But - as a teacher I feel that it is my job to improve my ringers. And as a tower captain I feel that it is my job to ensure the succession - and this lady and her husband are the only ringers in the band who are capable of taking it forward into the future.
I am kinda hoping that there is some management technique that I am lacking - maybe I don't smile enough; maybe I smile too much! Please tell me!
Thanks, Barbara

How to MOTIVATE a ringer who has reached a plateau and wishes to stay there, and becomes stressed when I guide her towards the next ascent? — Barbara Le Gallez

You are right, it is about motivation. Maybe there are clues in the language used to pose the question. Should we be using mountaineering analogies in the first place, since most people do not aspire to climb mountains?
Even if we do, a plateau is a good place to be, because it's easy to move around with little effort and there are good views to all around laid out below you. Also, you cannot go up from a plateau, it is a flat top.
I think the concept in your mind is a ledge, a level part of an ascent where you can rest ahead of the next climb. I don't think that is how most people think about ringing, even the ones who want to progress (and the ledges I've sat during climbs were not places you would want to hang around anyway).
You said she just wanted to 'have fun'*, ie to enjoy her ringing. That's fine. It's possible to enjoy doing familiar things and it's possible to enjoy playing round with novel things, including laughing about it when you get it wrong. It all depends on what mood you are in.
In the right mood, trying something new, messing up a bit, maybe succeeding a bit and maybe learning a bit in the process can be fun, and even fodder for yarns in the pub. But in the wrong mood it won't.
Harking back to my hang gliding days my instructor said he would never tell me when to fly, I had to decide that for myself. On that occasion I didn't, but if I had done I would have been in a very different frame of mind if I had decided, rather than having to go because it was my turn.
Not sure whether any of this will help, but you never know.

Thank you John. If I have understood you correctly, your advice is to keep offering opportunities and hope that the lady's mood is such that she is disposed to find them fun.

John, I would be interested to hear how you think most people think about ringing. To me, it is exactly like struggling up a mountain, pausing to catch your breath on a ledge and immediately setting off for the next gruelling ascent. If others don't see it like that, how do they see it?

I think there might be a bit more to it than that.
From what you say she sees the ringing on offer as either enjoying where she is or tackling the next pitch of a (steep) climb. Masochists and those who are competitively driven will choose latter while anyone else will choose the former. And the longer they do so the harder it may be to change.
To keep a band of less driven (and often busy) ringers moving requires the offer of something less start than a gruelling climb up the next pitch.
(As another aside, that's why I gave up rock climbing and took up fell walking. You still go up - usually a lot higher - but it's less stressful, you can vary the pace, take detours to anything interesting, and enjoy the view as you go, as well as at the summit even if it's not a high one. That's better than hanging around on a cold damp rock face interspersed with strenuous pitches clinging on by your finger tips and at risk of 'peeling' at any moment.)
In a ringing context, if the band has regular enjoyable and not too strenuous excursions through interesting terrain anyone on the sidelines is more likely to want to join in.
I realise that's easier to say than do, but it seems a more achievable target than 'everyone up at camp 3 by the summer'.

If others don't see it like that, how do they see it? — Barbara Le Gallez

That's a fascinating question, which could be the subject of some interesting research.
I don't know all the ways ringers think about ringing, but just from observation it's clear there are some quite different views. To understand them I think you would need to account for several dimensions, for example:
Importance:
'I ring because there's a gap in my life it happens to fill' through to 'I can't imagine ringing not being a major part of my life'
Performance quality:
'Ringing is an enjoyable social activity, I don't think about quality' to 'Ringing is a performing art, I try to ring as well as I can'.
Purpose:
'I ring to satisfy myself' to 'I ring as a service to the church / community'.
And so on. As I say, it would make a good research project.
At the day to day level, we just have to recognise that we don't all have the same motivation, qualitatively and quantitatively.

I now realise that the question I should have asked was "How to MOTIVATE a ringer who has reached a plateau and wishes to stay there, and becomes stressed when I guide her towards the next ascent? ... But - as a teacher I feel that it is my job to improve my ringers. And as a tower captain I feel that it is my job to ensure the succession - and this lady and her husband are the only ringers in the band who are capable of taking it forward into the future. — Barbara Le Gallez

Wow, there's a lot to unpack there. You say she's "reached a plateau and wishes to stay there" - isn't that your answer? To me, the job of a teacher, particularly when adults are involved, is to provide opportunities, encourage and support people's progress - and that's it. Have you actually asked them if they want to be the tower's "succession plan"? That's a big ask - and therefore you need to actually ask. People have every right to decide what they feel is "enough progress". Not one of the people who started ringing with has got anywhere near as far as I have - which isn't saying all that much. But that's fine, they turn up regularly and enjoy their ringing and their towers would be silent without them. Others do want to keep moving forwards, some more quickly than others and that's fine too. People have the right to decide, and we need to respect their decisions.

The obvious answer is "Don't try" - trying to do so will merely result in unhappy practice nights and sooner or later she will walk away. — Barbara Le Gallez

Yes. I almost certainly would.

Thank you John and John for your helpful advice.
I wonder if ART have addressed this question, of how to motivate ringers. Is there any ART person reading this who might be able to help me?

I think there are two aspects of ART which could help here.
One is the clear path - knowing that you are working through the levels, step by step, to one day ring a quarter peal or to be able to manage a touch in a minor method, etc. This can motivate people as it provides a next step to aim for but in this example you may need to emphasise that there is no rush, it’s fine to enjoy plain hunting for a while before deciding to try steps into method ringing.
The other is the celebration of achievements and sharing of satisfaction which comes in the Tower Talk newsletter and the ART Awards and that sort of thing. Knowing that many other people are also taking their next steps to improve their ringing and prepare to one day ring a quarter peal (or whatever) might also be a motivation that it really is possible, even if it doesn’t feel like it today.

The other big focus in ART is small steps, backwards to go forwards and break it down into smaller pieces. Maybe this learner will benefit from lots of plain hunting, getting really comfortable with it, before being ready to ask to try a next step.
It might be worth trying some methods which are a new challenge for everyone but still plain hunting for the treble, whether that is st Simon’s and st martins or double oxford or even stranger exercises like little penultimate where every other ringer is heavily watching / listening for the treble to know what to do themselves. Then everyone is getting some interesting ringing whilst this learner is ‘allowed’ to stay in the comfort zone of plain hunt (but likely acquiring improvement in rope sight and rhythm skills along the way).

I regularly ring with a Ring for the King learner who said early on that she only ever wanted to be able to cover well, then that she would only ever treble and is now ringing plain bob minor inside and trebling to surprise minor (and still fairly determined that she can’t try something new unless she’s had time to look at it at home first). She sets high standards for herself and hates to feel that she’s gone wrong and ‘ruined’ it for others. So, patiently, we are letting her drive the pace with an occasional suggestion of something she could look at next.

I found this article on the ART website (when looking for something else entirely!) and it shares why lapsed ringers said they enjoyed ringing and why they lapsed fro ringing and (in many cases) returned again later: https://ringingteachers.org/application/files/3616/1220/8169/Why_do_ringers_lapse.pdf
The social side was seen as a greater motivation to ring than the mental exercise but the mental exercise is still a major reason to choose bellringing as an activity.

Thank you Lucy, that is most helpful.

So perhaps something motivated you, John, which did not motivate the other members of your cohort? Do you know what it was?
PS If you ever happen to be at Landbeach, just N of Cambridge, do come and ring with us, as it would be great to meet you in person.

So perhaps something motivated you, John, which did not motivate the other members of your cohort? Do you know what it was? — Barbara Le Gallez

I've spent 40+ years thinking about, looking for and manipulating patterns that change dynamically (software engineer), so that bit felt familiar, and I learned to play Afro-Brazilian percussion to a high standard as an adult, so the rhythm side was familiar as well. I was also interested in the theoretical side of ringing from early on, although I'm no mathematician. Beyond that, large helpings of obsessiveness and stubbornness - I started ringing because it looked hard (I was right), I carried on because I wouldn't let it defeat me (it very nearly did).

So I think that means that I'm an outlier. My observations of the top level of ringers is that they usually are as well - they mostly started young, have the necessary mix of natural aptitudes, got the high level of support that's needed and most of all, they stuck at it. In my case my mid-50s start, lack of some of those aptitudes and the state of ringing where I live will impose a ceiling on my progress, but I haven't hit it yet and I haven't got bored trying to reach it yet.

That's not to say that the other people in my circle aren't motivated, but everyone's situation is different and therefore their degree of motivation, rate of progress and ultimate goals will differ as well, which is fine. @Lucy Chandhial's example of their RftK ringer is familiar and I think their approach is spot on - they are providing gentle prodding and support, but the pace is being driven by the ringer. I always try to remind myself that nobody takes up ringing with the intention of being bad at it, but it's one of the most difficult things an adult will learn from scratch.

And thanks for the invite :smile: