Ringing Forums

[reply="John de Overa;d496". Your situation illustrates part of the problem that Ringing 2030 is hoping to address. How much headway it will make is yet to be seen.
There are already places where that statement is true. If Ringing 2030 makes an impact it will be true in more places, which would surely make it worthwhile.
No doubt there will always be some places where it is not true, whatever we do. But I’m not sure watering down the vision statement would help.

I'm not suggesting it's watered down, I'm suggesting that it is hurried up. I'm a late starter, my ringing career is therefore going to be short. If all I manage to do in the time I can ring is to help keep things ticking over until ringing reinvigorates itself, I'll count it as a successful ringing career. But there needs to be something left to reinvigorate in the first place. The intent behind Ringing 2030 is laudable, the apparently glacial rate or progress is not. Time is running out.

After practising assiduously on the tower sim for the last fortnight I had a couple of goes at Bristol at the weekend. It wasn't great but did get better on each attempt - but that required a three hour round trip and I probably won't get another chance to do any more 8 bell ringing until autumn. I'm aware of a couple of 8-bell practices in the region but they are for people who are already good 8 bell ringers and want to ring spliced, QPs etc. I haven't found anything that's suitable for people wanting to step up to Major, so I've reluctantly decided to abandon 8 bell ringing as where I am it's no longer a realistic option if you can't already ring at that level. — John de Overa

Have you considered trying to organise a practice in the region for those in a similar situation to you?

Have you considered trying to organise a practice in the region for those in a similar situation to you? — Alan C

I have, it's not a practical option, unfortunately - there are just too few ringers who want to step up to Major, and too few inclined who are to support them.

I have, it's not a practical option, unfortunately - there are just too few ringers who want to step up to Major, and too few inclined who are to support them. — John de Overa

Sorry to hear that.

One of the projects within the Ringing 2030 workgroups is the survey of ringers. The aim of this is to better understand how many ringers are hitting the same kind of barrier as you because it does vary hugely geographically as to when you hit a barrier of not having enough ringers at a similar level wanting to make similar progress.

The interesting theme in your posts (which I do also hear from others) is that the elite experienced ringers don’t want to bring in others to help them reach the next level. Whilst this is obviously true of some ringers there are many ringers who spend more than 75% of their ringing time helping others to improve without being stretched or challenged themself.
Some very good ringers recognise the risk that they will lose their opportunities if they don’t invest some time in bringing others through.
Maybe there is one ringer near you who could persuade the band of elite ringers to host a supported practice for up and coming ringers even just four times a year?
But I appreciate you are trying every option so it may be that this is not possible in your area, hopefully this is not true for the majority of ringers and hopefully, gradually Ringing 2030 can encourage more ringers to be helping the next ringers to improve their skills and experience.

it does vary hugely geographically as to when you hit a barrier of not having enough ringers at a similar level wanting to make similar progress. — Lucy Chandhial

I agree, from what I've seen the situation is much better in some other areas. From what I've been told, things have not been good here (Greater Manchester) for many decades, I think it's therefore a poster child for how increasingly difficult it could become in other areas as the current generation of Surprise Major level ringers stop ringing.

Maybe there is one ringer near you who could persuade the band of elite ringers to host a supported practice for up and coming ringers even just four times a year? — Lucy Chandhial

There's no practically-accessible Major sessions in this area of my home association (Derby), most of the nearest towers are in Chester/Yorkshire/Lancashire.

There was a monthly Surprise Major practice in the Yorkshire Association which I found supportive & helpful, but that folded before Xmas. A Major QP group has started up in its place but I'm not at QP standard yet, so chicken, meet egg.

There's another fortnightly one in in the Chester Guild which I was going to but my fare was restricted to 2 half courses of Cambridge each fortnight. I asked repeatedly to ring Yorkshire as the ropesight is easier, one of my bugbears. I was point blank refused "Because the others wouldn't like it" (whatever that means). I always felt I was viewed as a bit of an encumbrance as the group was mostly people who want to ring spliced Surprise Major and not really a learning environment, so after Xmas I quietly dropped out. Nobody has been in touch, so I was right.

I'll probably keep chipping away at Bristol on the tower sim for my own amusement - the feedback I got at the weekend was that I clearly knew the method but needed to sharpen up the "wrong" work which I kinda knew already - it's the first method I've really rung with a mix of right/wrong work, so no big surprise, and getting to grips with it will pay off with Minor stuff. But as for ringing Major "for real", as I said, I've given that up as a lost cause.

One very small but helpful step that CC has already achieved has been to get the new North West residential course going, and one of the topics this course offers is "6 to 8", covering part of what you mention. There's no one single magic bullet that is going to suddenly cure all ills, but small steps in the right direction are happening. I also wonder why your local association is not offering anything to help. ANZAB - my local association - now offers offers regular courses at three different levels, namely 12-bell, "advanced" (which covers exactly what you mention - anything from Stedman Triples to spliced surprise major), and "intermediate" (for ringers stuck at around the badly struck PB5 sort of level). And it offers some subsidized travel (our distances being rather greater!) and scholarships. I suggest that if there is adequate demand you should badger your association to do something - that it what is is for, surely.

This is the very situation that the Cast of 1000 had hoped to address. Finding someone keen to run the practices is probably the hard part as always when looking for a volunteer. The second step would approach the 'supporting cast' and get people to sign up to attend however many they could manage. The hope was that individual ringers would at least offer their services for a couple of hours perhaps once or twice a year to help this group of ringers.

courses can be part of the solution but not the whole. After attending a course the student needs to return to an environment where he/she can build on and consolidate what’s been learnt.

One very small but helpful step that CC has already achieved has been to get the new North West residential course going, and one of the topics this course offers is "6 to 8", covering part of what you mention. — David Smith

I'm considering going on that this year, but the syllabus isn't available yet. I'm already ringing on 8 so I'll have to see if it's worthwhile, with all such courses, ringing something once a year is a waste of time unless there's follow-up in place. One of the things I've heard from people who taught at the last couple is that people are coming back a year later having made absolutely no further progress.

I also wonder why your local association is not offering anything to help. — David Smith

In the association as a whole it's mostly "social" events and there's no training at all in my district. There's an "8 bell practice for 'advanced beginners'" in a different district but it only seems to be running for the next 2 months, it says what they ring is going to depend on who turns up and for me it's a 3 hour round trip - I'm not inclined to spend twice as long as the practice travelling on an off-chance. My home association is a dead loss as far as training goes, and has been since I started.

The most active guild in the area is one that isn't associated with the CCCBR and people outside the area haven't heard about, which I think speaks volumes about the state of the associations around here.

This is the very situation that the Cast of 1000 had hoped to address. — David Kirkcaldy

What happened to that? It seems to have fallen my the wayside?

After attending a course the student needs to return to an environment where he/she can build on and consolidate what’s been learnt. — John Harrison

Yes, without opportunity for regular practice afterwards it's pretty pointless.

After attending a course the student needs to return to an environment where he/she can build on and consolidate what’s been learnt.

That is certainly a problem with some attendees at some residential courses. In the first NW course (2022) I offered the topic "Moving on in Minor" (essentially to introduce plain minor methods such as Double Oxford). A subsequent discussion with Simon Linford brought forth the idea that such courses are best if they help attendees over a hurdle. I now (2023, 2024 and hopefully this year) offer "Starting Surprise". The idea is that if you have done no surprise, you can't really rock up to a local surprise minor practice and ask to join in - there's just too much to learn. But if you've attended the course, you will have rung plain courses and short touches of at least Cambridge (and we did Primrose too last year), so you can attend your local surprise minor events, even if you have to say "I ring only Cambridge so far, and may need a stander-behind'. But you are now over the hurdle.

I feel that "Moving on in Minor" is more suited to events like the ANZAB intermediate courses, where you hopefully have quite a few ringers from the same tower or cluster, and if you can get them started on something like Double Oxford, they should be able to get together and continue to ring it after the event.

But the bottom line is that, if what you need is not available in your area, try to find some like-minded ringers and make it happen!

if you have done no surprise, you can't really rock up to a local surprise minor practice and ask to join in - there's just too much to learn — David Smith

I think too much fuss is made about Surprise, I found it was a bigger jump from Plain to TB methods than it was from TB to Surprise. I believe it's more important to teach people how to learn methods than it is to teach them specific classes of methods.

But the bottom line is that, if what you need is not available in your area, try to find some like-minded ringers and make it happen! — David Smith

You can't have 8 people all trying to get to grips with Major at the same time, more than 2 in at once and it's a struggle. You need a solid band.

With respect John, I am really struggling to see how your own personal experience means Ringing 2030 is stillborn. If you are starting to look at Bristol, then you are already a lot more advanced than the vast majority of ringers, and that is fantastic. In the G&BDA the CC Reps are working hard to update the local leadership, and then the membership on what is going on, and we are preparing to leverage off what Ringing 2030 is trying to achieve. But most of that work will be at a more early stage than Bristol Major. In fact, we may also effect change even if Ringing 2030 doesn't provide that impetus, time will tell. Unfortunately though, time... will have to tell.

I am sure that other associations are trying to address the decline. Maybe not all though...

There's no practically-accessible Major sessions in this area of my home association (Derby), most of the nearest towers are in Chester/Yorkshire/Lancashire. — John de Overa

If you are in Derby, I find that hard to believe. There is nowhere in Nottingham or Leicester? I have moved away from Northants but I can think of other towers in North Northants maybe only 1 hour away?

You are not on Bellboard. Why do you not use your actual name? If you would like to talk you can find me on the swindon branch website. Happy to talk in whatever medium you are comfortable with.

it does vary hugely geographically as to when you hit a barrier of not having enough ringers at a similar level wanting to make similar progress.
— Lucy Chandhial

I agree, from what I've seen the situation is much better in some other areas. From what I've been told, things have not been good here (Greater Manchester) for many decades, — John de Overa

are you in Manchester or Derby? If you are in Manchester (and I know this area less well) I would be surprised if there is not a practice that can offer surprise major.

The intent behind Ringing 2030 is laudable, the apparently glacial rate or progress is not. Time is running out. — John de Overa

Ringing is a very localised activity. There is no way in the world that "The Centre" can solve ringing for the whole of the Country. It has to be done at grassroots level so I would say, experienced ringers like you need to 1. find their own high level ringing, and 2. help to pull up those below you, to be more experience than they currently are. We all need to take responsibility for helping those less experienced
than we are. Someone taught us once.

there are many ringers who spend more than 75% of their ringing time helping others to improve without being stretched or challenged themself. — Lucy Chandhial

I have a none ringing spouse, and therefore have a limited amount of ringing time. So I spend 100% of my available ringing time trying to develop more inexperienced ringers than myself. I get an enormous amount of joy out of that.

Ringing 2030 is not going to solve everything overnight, but it is a movement that is trying to move in the right direction. Don't give up on it John and please try and support it.

If you are starting to look at Bristol, then you are already a lot more advanced than the vast majority of ringers, and that is fantastic. — Jason Carter

You haven't heard me attempting to ring it :sweat: I'm fortunate that I have access to a tower sim that's 5 minutes walk away, and even then it's taken a lot of determination, and ringing on a sim doesn't automatically transfer to ringing for real.

If you are in Derby, I find that hard to believe. There is nowhere in Nottingham or Leicester? — Jason Carter

I'm in Derby Association, not Derby city. Nottingham is 1h30m away, Leicester is 2h.

experienced ringers like you need to 1. find their own high level ringing, and 2. help to pull up those below you, to be more experience than they currently are. We all need to take responsibility for helping those less experienced
than we are. Someone taught us once. — Jason Carter

I wouldn't describe myself as "experienced", more like "stubborn". I spend much of my time helping those coming along behind me - I've taught handling to half of the people now ringing at my home tower, for example.

Ringing 2030 is not going to solve everything overnight, but it is a movement that is trying to move in the right direction. Don't give up on it John and please try and support it. — Jason Carter

I'd love to support it in whatever small way I can. I just can't see much sign of it in my area.

A point that often seems to need making is that the Central Council is not a governing body; it is a representative and supporting body. Looking at its stated purposes in it rules you find that verbs such as: encouraging, representing, facilitating, foster, promoting, sharing and advising are used. To my mind Ringing 2030 is a project, or maybe a campaign, that aims to bring what is seen to be the declining state of ringing into focus and faciliating and encouraging local efforts to address it. Improvements will not be achieved by dictate from the Central Council.

The question is thus what can individuals do at a local level to find or develop the opportunities they need. I would suggest a couple of approaches:
1. Approach the tower captains of the more advanced local practices and talk to them about why you wish to attend thier practices and what you want to achieve in the short and long term. Be realistic about what standard you are starting at and agree what methods you will focus on to start with, revising that as you progress. Towers with stong practices should have an eye on the future and be thinking about what happens when some of their established band move away or retire from advanced ringing, they have ever reason to support regular visitors who wish to progress and are willing to make the effort.
2. Work with any enthusiatic local ringers to explore pathways that may intially be far from the more complex surprise major methods. Some plain major methods are very challanging, Double Coslany for instance. There is much satisfaction and pleasure in a group mastering methods that gently stretch them and achieving performance lengths of them. Such performances also give scope of developing the conducting skills such a group will need among thier number.

Finally if you feel that your local territorial society/guild/association/branch/district is not active enough, put yourself forward to take a leadership role.

Improvements will not be achieved by dictate from the Central Council. — Paul Wotton

If associations are already moribund I suspect there's little chance of Ringing 2030 having much effect - the areas that need it most are the least likely to benefit. I think that if the CC wants to have an impact it needs to change from being a passive organisation to an active one. I think the discussions around direct membership show that there's an increasing realisation that's the case, and from the outside at least, it seems like the Young Ringers initiative is already taking that approach? So there is hope.

Approach the tower captains of the more advanced local practices — Paul Wotton

There aren't any within reach in my Association and I already detailed the issues with those in adjacent Associations.

Work with any enthusiastic local ringers to explore pathways that may initially be far from the more complex surprise major methods — Paul Wotton

I'm already doing that with my home tower for example I'm running a "How to learn methods" session next month, but the current hurdle is helping people ring methods at all - I think my ringing career will have finished before the tower ever gets to Surprise Major, if it ever does. It comes back round to my original quote from Ringing 2030:

2. That no ringer should hit a barrier to their own progression
If a ringer wants to progress, they should always be able to find a pathway that helps them, although it will probably not just be at their own tower.

A laudable aim, I just don't see how it is going to be delivered with the current plan and at the current rate of progress.

As someone working on Ringing 2030 ... We do need to hurry it up, and pull together but it's run by volunteers! :(
There's lots of moving parts to Ringing 2030 and we need to solve the complex issues of ringing.

If you can support ringing in your area please get involved

Regarding stepping into surprise major, for comparison most activities other than ringing have dedicated 'coaches' / 'trainers' who themselves are interested in, trained in, and probably dedicate much of their involvement in the activity to that type of function, rather than 'performing' the activity itself.

Musicians, for example, usually rely on other professionals to train them at the appropriate level, maintain and repair their instruments, organise the orchestra / band or similar. This is especially so, for individuals who are capable of progressing to the elite levels of 'performance'. Similarly, for sports, there are equipment coaches and trainers, suppliers, repairers, groundsmen for pitches, etc. In many instances the individuals involved may do relatively little of the activity itself, especially at the highest levels.

Those advancing to the higher levels in other activities expect to travel progressively greater distances from the village / town, to city, county / national level. They do not and should expect to find enough people with the time, interest and capability in their immediate locality. So why do ringers and ringing continue to expect anything different?

Similarly, why can't capable technical people maintain bell installations without being ringers? Yes, they need some awareness of bells and ringing. This applies to many roles in ringing - e.g. interested historians / archivists etc could make a huge difference to certain aspects of ringing records without being fully active ringers themselves. However, there is often the restriction in ringing society Rules, that members have to be active ringers, and that only paid up members can be elected to the positions that undertake such roles. Let's be more flexible in our outlook!

"You are not on Bellboard. Why do you not use your actual name" - Jason Carter

I have wondered this as well, John De Overa. Have you ring quarter peals under a different name? You mentioned above "I am not up to quarter peal standard". Do you mean in general, or just in reference to Surprise Major?

when we were doing our tower rehang project I set up a shared Facebook account for the tower, which FB deleted because it was named after the tower, so I created another one, named after the vicar in 1321. I was the only person who ever used it so kept it going.

The last QP I rang inside to was PBM, 3 years ago - my home tower aren't a method band so there's not much opportunity for QPs, so I guess the answer to your question is "Yes" and "Yes". I've occasionally rung QP lengths on the sim, but I prefer to spend the time working on new stuff.

I understand from your reply that you have rung some QPs but you have not used your real name on Bellboard.

Were you not aware that your "ringing CV" is built largely on your Bellboard record? And that when you seek new opportunities, people will check this CV to see whether your plans are realistic?

anybody I would be likely to ring QPs with already knows me and my QP record and would be doing so despite it not because of it. Plus there'd be dry runs before anyway. And in any case I'm not going to worry about something with a low probability of happening.

The challenge of these conversations is that a lot of the responses are based on a world view of ringing which in areas like mine has long disappeared.

I think this is a good point to note when it comes to managing frustrations and planning ambitiously for the future.
We will always have some people pushing to learn and perform behind the capabilities of their local area, some travelling further than others to find opportunity.

I think the sticking point, which I can understand is frustrating, is knowing that the ringing you want is possible near you but the people involved don’t want to help get you over the initial learning part to be ready to join them in quarters.

I think we are a long way from providing paid coaching which can include a strong band for Yorkshire Surprise Major as that’s where the ratio gets difficult. You need 6 or 7 strong ringers to support up to 4 learners for a good session of surprise major and that’s either expensive or asking a lot from strong ringers (especially if that includes over an hour of travel each way).
The Cast of 1000 aim showed that with all the best intentions it was not possible to organise on a volunteer basis so people joined online sessions but these never transferred to tower bell ringing.

Possibly Ringing 2030 needs to approach different areas in different ways (as you might with sport or music) but on a 99% volunteer basis it will be a slow journey to bring greater numbers to the point where they don’t meet a barrier to learning based on travel times to find a suitable band.
This is not something the CCCBR can be expected to ‘fix’, it’s part of being involved in a grass roots team activity which doesn’t have professional options, sponsorship options or academies like some sports and music do.

You need 6 or 7 strong ringers to support up to 4 learners for a good session of surprise major and that’s either expensive or asking a lot from strong ringers (especially if that includes over an hour of travel each way). — Lucy Chandhial

I think that's the crux of it, there are two factors at play - Major needs more experienced ringers to support learners, and there are fewer of them around anyway.

The Cast of 1000 aim showed that with all the best intentions it was not possible to organise on a volunteer basis so people joined online sessions but these never transferred to tower bell ringing. — Lucy Chandhial

I've heard about the Cof1K effort but not much about how it played out. Do you know if anyone has done a "lessons learned" of any kind?

I think we are a long way from providing paid coaching which can include a strong band for Yorkshire Surprise Major as that’s where the ratio gets difficult. You need 6 or 7 strong ringers to support up to 4 learners for a good session of surprise major — Lucy Chandhial

I can't see providing a strong band for Yorkshire Major as being part of a professionally paid for service. Most activities with paid tuition is done so on the basis of multiple learners to one instructor, or at best 1:1. Your Yorkshire example (rightly) requires two instructors per learner. Does anyone have examples from other activities where you would have multiple paid instructors to a single learner? Ringing, as the group activity, is much more like an orchestra or amateur sports team.

Coaching however I can see as a service. In this case it would be more like @A M Hodge example of guiding rather "participating" in the performance. I would see this as guiding the learner in how to approach the task, what to work on, providing feedback and setting goals.

Those advancing to the higher levels in other activities expect to travel progressively greater distances from the village / town, to city, county / national level. They do not and should expect to find enough people with the time, interest and capability in their immediate locality. So why do ringers and ringing continue to expect anything different? — A M Hodge

@A M Hodge has succinctly put into words what I have been thinking. Ringing Bristol Major would put you somewhere in the top 10-20% of ringers. Its not unreasonable to expect to have to travel to participate in an activity at that level. Virtually every person who has reached a high level in ringing will have had a period in their life when they spent a lot of time ringing, spent a lot of time travelling to get there, and spent a lot of time outside the tower preparing.

We often only see the results of people who are very good at ringing, they appear to be able to do ring anything and make it look effortless. What we don't often see is the time and preparation that goes in to achieving that level. There was an excellent article in the RW a couple of weeks back by Simon Melon about his double handed tower bell peal of Chandler's. I was staggered by the amount of work he said that he put in to achieve that goal.

Its worth remembering that ringing is a team activity. That much obvious whilst ringing any given touch but it goes much wider than that. You can't ring something without another 5, 7, 9, 11 other people to ring it with. For ringing to work as a larger thing, then we need to work as part of one or more teams to make it happen. That might be a local band, it might be a quarter peal band, it might be a district level thing or maybe even wider. One logical conclusion is a responsibility to continue helping people up the ladder behind you so there's a steady flow of people to ring with. But this isn't the only way, a band can also forge ahead together, pushing their boundaries jointly instead of being 6/7 strong ringers with 1/2 learners. Ultimately you need a group of people in which people's goals are aligned to achieve something, ringing doesn't happen in isolation.

Ringing Bristol Major would put you somewhere in the top 10-20% of ringers. Its not unreasonable to expect to have to travel to participate in an activity at that level. — Jonathan Frye

Absolutely, but there are limits. For example for someone who is working, travelling 2 hours to a practice on a weekday evening isn't practical. And it's not just a question of travelling time, I made a 3 hour round trip on a recent weekend to ring my first wobbly touches of Bristol, but I likely won't have another opportunity for months. What's also needed is regular (preferably weekly) opportunities.

Ringing 2030 is called that for a reason and is not a miracle cure that will guarantee that surprise major bands suddenly appear everywhere. These are long term projects that take time to develop and deliver benefits.
Try engaging with your local guild to see what they are doing and maybe even offer to run for office to create some impetus if this is lacking. My local guild run a monthly surprise major practice. I don't go as the striking is generally terrible. IMO there is far too much emphasis on pushing on to ring more complex stuff, rather than ringing things well.
Given your experience, it would be interesting for the recruitment and development workgroup to learn from you. Give Paul Wotton a shout
https://cccbr.org.uk/about/workgroups/volunteer-and-leadership/

I am part of that workgroup (and have been thinking about this topic of people who don’t choose to help others progress as much as perhaps they could, for the sake of ringing in five to ten years time).

I also think the survey (part of the same workgroup) would really help to check how many ringers in how many parts of the country have this similar frustration. A kind of heatmap of the point at which you need to travel more than one hour to reach a developmental practice at least once a month.

Yesterday I rang with someone who had travelled from Kent into east London to ring beyond bob minor, his journey was over an hour despite the range of towers which are ringing regularly in Kent. Probably partly because he uses public transport which limits options in the countryside part of Kent.

Ringing 2030 definitely hopes to raise the bar for the level of ringing which requires a long journey, a special effort or is less frequently available. The factors which make it hard are varied and John has shared a lot across the past year or so through this forum and Facebook as one example of a frustrated ringer.
The risk is that (like customer service) for every John who tells us his frustrations ten more ringers simply slide away from ringing and look for other activities.

John - if you do want to talk about the activity in the Recruitment and Development workgroup message me and we can definitely set up a call with Paul but (as I know you are very aware) there is no magic answer and it’s going to take lots of energy from a variety of people to gradually make a difference.

My local guild run a monthly surprise major practice. I don't go as the striking is generally terrible. IMO there is far too much emphasis on pushing on to ring more complex stuff, rather than ringing things well. — Andrea Haynes

That's a Catch 22 even I've seen - poor practices which put off the good ringers they need so much and things just spiral downwards. What I've also noticed is that if Major practices are infrequent they tend to be oversubscribed when they do happen, and the attendees have a very wide range of ability, so they aren't particularly great for anyone.

A kind of heatmap of the point at which you need to travel more than one hour to reach a developmental practice at least once a month. — Lucy Chandhial

That sounds like an excellent idea.