Ringing Forums

[reply="John de Overa;d496". Your situation illustrates part of the problem that Ringing 2030 is hoping to address. How much headway it will make is yet to be seen.
There are already places where that statement is true. If Ringing 2030 makes an impact it will be true in more places, which would surely make it worthwhile.
No doubt there will always be some places where it is not true, whatever we do. But I’m not sure watering down the vision statement would help.

I'm not suggesting it's watered down, I'm suggesting that it is hurried up. I'm a late starter, my ringing career is therefore going to be short. If all I manage to do in the time I can ring is to help keep things ticking over until ringing reinvigorates itself, I'll count it as a successful ringing career. But there needs to be something left to reinvigorate in the first place. The intent behind Ringing 2030 is laudable, the apparently glacial rate or progress is not. Time is running out.

After practising assiduously on the tower sim for the last fortnight I had a couple of goes at Bristol at the weekend. It wasn't great but did get better on each attempt - but that required a three hour round trip and I probably won't get another chance to do any more 8 bell ringing until autumn. I'm aware of a couple of 8-bell practices in the region but they are for people who are already good 8 bell ringers and want to ring spliced, QPs etc. I haven't found anything that's suitable for people wanting to step up to Major, so I've reluctantly decided to abandon 8 bell ringing as where I am it's no longer a realistic option if you can't already ring at that level. — John de Overa

Have you considered trying to organise a practice in the region for those in a similar situation to you?

Have you considered trying to organise a practice in the region for those in a similar situation to you? — Alan C

I have, it's not a practical option, unfortunately - there are just too few ringers who want to step up to Major, and too few inclined who are to support them.

I have, it's not a practical option, unfortunately - there are just too few ringers who want to step up to Major, and too few inclined who are to support them. — John de Overa

Sorry to hear that.

One of the projects within the Ringing 2030 workgroups is the survey of ringers. The aim of this is to better understand how many ringers are hitting the same kind of barrier as you because it does vary hugely geographically as to when you hit a barrier of not having enough ringers at a similar level wanting to make similar progress.

The interesting theme in your posts (which I do also hear from others) is that the elite experienced ringers don’t want to bring in others to help them reach the next level. Whilst this is obviously true of some ringers there are many ringers who spend more than 75% of their ringing time helping others to improve without being stretched or challenged themself.
Some very good ringers recognise the risk that they will lose their opportunities if they don’t invest some time in bringing others through.
Maybe there is one ringer near you who could persuade the band of elite ringers to host a supported practice for up and coming ringers even just four times a year?
But I appreciate you are trying every option so it may be that this is not possible in your area, hopefully this is not true for the majority of ringers and hopefully, gradually Ringing 2030 can encourage more ringers to be helping the next ringers to improve their skills and experience.

it does vary hugely geographically as to when you hit a barrier of not having enough ringers at a similar level wanting to make similar progress. — Lucy Chandhial

I agree, from what I've seen the situation is much better in some other areas. From what I've been told, things have not been good here (Greater Manchester) for many decades, I think it's therefore a poster child for how increasingly difficult it could become in other areas as the current generation of Surprise Major level ringers stop ringing.

Maybe there is one ringer near you who could persuade the band of elite ringers to host a supported practice for up and coming ringers even just four times a year? — Lucy Chandhial

There's no practically-accessible Major sessions in this area of my home association (Derby), most of the nearest towers are in Chester/Yorkshire/Lancashire.

There was a monthly Surprise Major practice in the Yorkshire Association which I found supportive & helpful, but that folded before Xmas. A Major QP group has started up in its place but I'm not at QP standard yet, so chicken, meet egg.

There's another fortnightly one in in the Chester Guild which I was going to but my fare was restricted to 2 half courses of Cambridge each fortnight. I asked repeatedly to ring Yorkshire as the ropesight is easier, one of my bugbears. I was point blank refused "Because the others wouldn't like it" (whatever that means). I always felt I was viewed as a bit of an encumbrance as the group was mostly people who want to ring spliced Surprise Major and not really a learning environment, so after Xmas I quietly dropped out. Nobody has been in touch, so I was right.

I'll probably keep chipping away at Bristol on the tower sim for my own amusement - the feedback I got at the weekend was that I clearly knew the method but needed to sharpen up the "wrong" work which I kinda knew already - it's the first method I've really rung with a mix of right/wrong work, so no big surprise, and getting to grips with it will pay off with Minor stuff. But as for ringing Major "for real", as I said, I've given that up as a lost cause.

One very small but helpful step that CC has already achieved has been to get the new North West residential course going, and one of the topics this course offers is "6 to 8", covering part of what you mention. There's no one single magic bullet that is going to suddenly cure all ills, but small steps in the right direction are happening. I also wonder why your local association is not offering anything to help. ANZAB - my local association - now offers offers regular courses at three different levels, namely 12-bell, "advanced" (which covers exactly what you mention - anything from Stedman Triples to spliced surprise major), and "intermediate" (for ringers stuck at around the badly struck PB5 sort of level). And it offers some subsidized travel (our distances being rather greater!) and scholarships. I suggest that if there is adequate demand you should badger your association to do something - that it what is is for, surely.

This is the very situation that the Cast of 1000 had hoped to address. Finding someone keen to run the practices is probably the hard part as always when looking for a volunteer. The second step would approach the 'supporting cast' and get people to sign up to attend however many they could manage. The hope was that individual ringers would at least offer their services for a couple of hours perhaps once or twice a year to help this group of ringers.

courses can be part of the solution but not the whole. After attending a course the student needs to return to an environment where he/she can build on and consolidate what’s been learnt.

One very small but helpful step that CC has already achieved has been to get the new North West residential course going, and one of the topics this course offers is "6 to 8", covering part of what you mention. — David Smith

I'm considering going on that this year, but the syllabus isn't available yet. I'm already ringing on 8 so I'll have to see if it's worthwhile, with all such courses, ringing something once a year is a waste of time unless there's follow-up in place. One of the things I've heard from people who taught at the last couple is that people are coming back a year later having made absolutely no further progress.

I also wonder why your local association is not offering anything to help. — David Smith

In the association as a whole it's mostly "social" events and there's no training at all in my district. There's an "8 bell practice for 'advanced beginners'" in a different district but it only seems to be running for the next 2 months, it says what they ring is going to depend on who turns up and for me it's a 3 hour round trip - I'm not inclined to spend twice as long as the practice travelling on an off-chance. My home association is a dead loss as far as training goes, and has been since I started.

The most active guild in the area is one that isn't associated with the CCCBR and people outside the area haven't heard about, which I think speaks volumes about the state of the associations around here.

This is the very situation that the Cast of 1000 had hoped to address. — David Kirkcaldy

What happened to that? It seems to have fallen my the wayside?

After attending a course the student needs to return to an environment where he/she can build on and consolidate what’s been learnt. — John Harrison

Yes, without opportunity for regular practice afterwards it's pretty pointless.

After attending a course the student needs to return to an environment where he/she can build on and consolidate what’s been learnt.

That is certainly a problem with some attendees at some residential courses. In the first NW course (2022) I offered the topic "Moving on in Minor" (essentially to introduce plain minor methods such as Double Oxford). A subsequent discussion with Simon Linford brought forth the idea that such courses are best if they help attendees over a hurdle. I now (2023, 2024 and hopefully this year) offer "Starting Surprise". The idea is that if you have done no surprise, you can't really rock up to a local surprise minor practice and ask to join in - there's just too much to learn. But if you've attended the course, you will have rung plain courses and short touches of at least Cambridge (and we did Primrose too last year), so you can attend your local surprise minor events, even if you have to say "I ring only Cambridge so far, and may need a stander-behind'. But you are now over the hurdle.

I feel that "Moving on in Minor" is more suited to events like the ANZAB intermediate courses, where you hopefully have quite a few ringers from the same tower or cluster, and if you can get them started on something like Double Oxford, they should be able to get together and continue to ring it after the event.

But the bottom line is that, if what you need is not available in your area, try to find some like-minded ringers and make it happen!

if you have done no surprise, you can't really rock up to a local surprise minor practice and ask to join in - there's just too much to learn — David Smith

I think too much fuss is made about Surprise, I found it was a bigger jump from Plain to TB methods than it was from TB to Surprise. I believe it's more important to teach people how to learn methods than it is to teach them specific classes of methods.

But the bottom line is that, if what you need is not available in your area, try to find some like-minded ringers and make it happen! — David Smith

You can't have 8 people all trying to get to grips with Major at the same time, more than 2 in at once and it's a struggle. You need a solid band.