Ringing Forums

There’s also a Learning Curve article: https://cccbr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/200412.pdf — John Harrison

Thanks, I'll add that to my references slide, along with the other ones mentioned in that article, and any others that seem appropriate.

I had read that Learning Curve article some time ago (I've read them all) and interestingly I've made the same points that you made in that article, so perhaps some of it did stick after all :smile:

I'm definitely going to see how it goes with my home tower first, the whole thing could fall flat and need a serious rethink - although I have asked a number of "grown ups" to review the content in advance, so fingers crossed. I suppose could go via ART as I'm an M1 teacher but the slides would need redoing to be in ART's style. But whatever route I choose, I don't want to get bogged down in months of "Having value added", no matter how well intentioned.

it is quite likely that there is something similar already out there — Lucy Chandhial

There's some, but not a lot. What is out there tends to be either too simple and focussed on learning individual methods (ART) or too complicated for the target audience (W. G. Wilson). There is some material that is closer, a Whiting Society booklet and the PDF of an out-of-print CCCBR booklet, both of which I've stolen from shamelessly. But even those contain material that I think is too advanced for the target audience so I've left a lot out. And even then I'm concerned that I may be pitching too high - we'll see.

But even if this is a roaring success it's not going to address the issue of how people progress to higher levels of ringing.

That doesn’t follow. The societies are just smaller versions of the CC. They are federations that can support, and do some things better done collectively across an area, but with ringing as it is currently organised, ie in tower bands, they societies are still removed from the coal face. — John Harrison

I sincerely hope it doesn't follow, hence the question. Because most of the ones I ring in are pretty rubbish.

I don’t see why it should. That’s a separate question. Even with a DMO action (as opposed to ideas, resources, support, etc) would still be needed at local level. — John Harrison

If it doesn't mean that I'm puzzled as to why mention of it has been expunged from the CC website ("I'm not sure how many times I have tried to remove that particular page ... from the website") If you want people to know what your goals are it seems a bit odd to remove them from view.

"DMO"? Debt Management Operations? Defence Mobilization Order? District Malaria Officer?

We are a six bell tower, with a modest repertoire, ringing CCs Plain Bob and Grandsire 5. We have 9 enthusiastic ringers. We run a tied bell practice every week using simulated sound, as well as our practice night. I run ad hoc training sessions for teaching bell handling (ART) and ringing the sim. These are for any ringers in the area. The CCCBR hasn't done any of this for us, I wouldn't expect it to - it is our initiative. — Phillip George

That sounds very like my home tower, both in terms of level and what we are doing. But the original subject of this discussion was about more advanced method ringing, it's difficult to see how that can be sustained nationally without a national effort - which is what the CCCBR is there for, surely?

I am trying to build a culture of being pro-active so that when I stop ringing others are able to continue, knowing how ringing works (important), and to the high standards we are aspiring to. — Phillip George

That's commendable and your tower are lucky to have you. But you doesn't scale nationally, that's where the CCCBR should be stepping in.

But I do also think there is a misconception that the CCCBR should make things happen which forgets that the CCCBR is a representation of ringers and that things happen when ringers make them happen. — Lucy Chandhial

That sounds like the expectation might be that the existing associations are going to do the delivery. Does that mean that the idea of the CCCBR as a direct membership organisation has been dropped?

I'm also dubious that a strategy based on associations delivering any of this is viable, although there are notable exceptions. If associations were responding to the needs of ringers there wouldn't need be a need for R2030 in the first place.

I feel that R2030 has become mired in Analysis Paralysis and that there are useful things that could be delivered quickly and easily and with minimal planning. For example I'm running a "How do I learn methods?" theory session for my tower next weekend. Over the weekend I asked on one of the learner ringer's Facebook groups if there would be any interest in in such a thing delivered as an online session. I've had around 40 positive responses so far, including "Happy to pay for the privilege". I'm going to see how the session for our tower goes first and the material would need tweaking as it's geared towards our needs, but I may go ahead and run something. If I do it will be completely outside any of the associations or CCCBR, it will be available nationally and I'll need to fund it myself.

I'm not the person who should be thinking about doing this, I'm still learning myself and am literally just a few pages further on in the book than the audience. But it both depresses and annoys me to see people desperate for help in the Learner's FB group who aren't getting it, their "teaching" consisting of being verbally harassed during their once-a-week attempts at a plain course of Plain Bob. Frankly, the ringing community should be ashamed of itself.

a core group of people are putting energy into it and want to achieve the goal that no one hits barriers to their development in ringing by 2030. — Lucy Chandhial

As above, mention of that has been removed from the CCCBR website. Does that mean it's no longer a goal?

I only have this as a link on Facebook but it was Radio 4, 16th March at 9:24. — Lucy Chandhial

The original is at https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00291nx, you need to skip 23:00 in.

https://cccbr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/learning-methods.pdf is pretty good as well.

I'm not sure how many times I have tried to remove that particular page (Strategic Priorities 2020-2023) from the website. Those strategic priorities were from before Ringing 2030, and exist there in probably a more nuanced fashion. — Tina

If you mean https://web.archive.org/web/20250301103845/https://cccbr.org.uk/about/executive/strategic-priorities-2020-2023/ it does seem to have gone from the CCCBR site, although I don't really understand the reasoning behind the removal. The page I quoted from is not that one however, it is https://cccbr.org.uk/ringing-2030/

It is true there is a big gap (both in skills and in the number of ringers have those skills) at precisely the place where John de Overa is feeling frustrated. But we can't magic up numbers that don't exist, so feeding the hopper, and keeping it fed in a sustainable way is where our focus is right now. — Tina

That sounds awfully like "We aren't going to try to do anything about that gap". I hope I'm wrong but if not, it doesn't matter how many people you "feed into the hopper" if there's no support for them to progress, method ringing will continue to die.

Ringing 2030 isn’t a scheme in the sense of a named activity or programme of activities. It’s more a vision and strategy to first decide what needs to change and then look at ways to make the change. ... And all of this will take time. ... Many are starting with research, trials and tests to see what actions are most effective but there are also actions, it’s just unlikely that these will cover all towers in a significant way quickly because it takes time for activity to spread and build. — Lucy Chandhial

It [Ringing 2030] has been instigated by the Central Council Executive and was introduced to Council members at the Annual Meeting in September 2022.

I'm sorry but in 2 1/2 years, as far as I can tell, stuff all concrete has happened, with the possible exception of the Young Ringers effort. The last thing the CCCBR needs is more "research", "trials" etc. The approaching crisis has been known about long before I started ringing and the only response there's been is more CC waffle and dithering.

At this point WHAT is done doesn't matter, all that matters is that SOMETHING PRACTICAL is done. It doesn't matter if the majority of things that are tried fail, because a minority of something is always going to be infinitely more than all of absolutely nothing.

My original point about R2030 being DOA couldn't be underlined any more starkly.

My local guild run a monthly surprise major practice. I don't go as the striking is generally terrible. IMO there is far too much emphasis on pushing on to ring more complex stuff, rather than ringing things well. — Andrea Haynes

That's a Catch 22 even I've seen - poor practices which put off the good ringers they need so much and things just spiral downwards. What I've also noticed is that if Major practices are infrequent they tend to be oversubscribed when they do happen, and the attendees have a very wide range of ability, so they aren't particularly great for anyone.

A kind of heatmap of the point at which you need to travel more than one hour to reach a developmental practice at least once a month. — Lucy Chandhial

That sounds like an excellent idea.

Ringing Bristol Major would put you somewhere in the top 10-20% of ringers. Its not unreasonable to expect to have to travel to participate in an activity at that level. — Jonathan Frye

Absolutely, but there are limits. For example for someone who is working, travelling 2 hours to a practice on a weekday evening isn't practical. And it's not just a question of travelling time, I made a 3 hour round trip on a recent weekend to ring my first wobbly touches of Bristol, but I likely won't have another opportunity for months. What's also needed is regular (preferably weekly) opportunities.

You need 6 or 7 strong ringers to support up to 4 learners for a good session of surprise major and that’s either expensive or asking a lot from strong ringers (especially if that includes over an hour of travel each way). — Lucy Chandhial

I think that's the crux of it, there are two factors at play - Major needs more experienced ringers to support learners, and there are fewer of them around anyway.

The Cast of 1000 aim showed that with all the best intentions it was not possible to organise on a volunteer basis so people joined online sessions but these never transferred to tower bell ringing. — Lucy Chandhial

I've heard about the Cof1K effort but not much about how it played out. Do you know if anyone has done a "lessons learned" of any kind?

anybody I would be likely to ring QPs with already knows me and my QP record and would be doing so despite it not because of it. Plus there'd be dry runs before anyway. And in any case I'm not going to worry about something with a low probability of happening.

The challenge of these conversations is that a lot of the responses are based on a world view of ringing which in areas like mine has long disappeared.

when we were doing our tower rehang project I set up a shared Facebook account for the tower, which FB deleted because it was named after the tower, so I created another one, named after the vicar in 1321. I was the only person who ever used it so kept it going.

The last QP I rang inside to was PBM, 3 years ago - my home tower aren't a method band so there's not much opportunity for QPs, so I guess the answer to your question is "Yes" and "Yes". I've occasionally rung QP lengths on the sim, but I prefer to spend the time working on new stuff.

seemingly the admins are contactable at adminatringingforumsdotorg.

Improvements will not be achieved by dictate from the Central Council. — Paul Wotton

If associations are already moribund I suspect there's little chance of Ringing 2030 having much effect - the areas that need it most are the least likely to benefit. I think that if the CC wants to have an impact it needs to change from being a passive organisation to an active one. I think the discussions around direct membership show that there's an increasing realisation that's the case, and from the outside at least, it seems like the Young Ringers initiative is already taking that approach? So there is hope.

Approach the tower captains of the more advanced local practices — Paul Wotton

There aren't any within reach in my Association and I already detailed the issues with those in adjacent Associations.

Work with any enthusiastic local ringers to explore pathways that may initially be far from the more complex surprise major methods — Paul Wotton

I'm already doing that with my home tower for example I'm running a "How to learn methods" session next month, but the current hurdle is helping people ring methods at all - I think my ringing career will have finished before the tower ever gets to Surprise Major, if it ever does. It comes back round to my original quote from Ringing 2030:

2. That no ringer should hit a barrier to their own progression
If a ringer wants to progress, they should always be able to find a pathway that helps them, although it will probably not just be at their own tower.

A laudable aim, I just don't see how it is going to be delivered with the current plan and at the current rate of progress.

If you are starting to look at Bristol, then you are already a lot more advanced than the vast majority of ringers, and that is fantastic. — Jason Carter

You haven't heard me attempting to ring it :sweat: I'm fortunate that I have access to a tower sim that's 5 minutes walk away, and even then it's taken a lot of determination, and ringing on a sim doesn't automatically transfer to ringing for real.

If you are in Derby, I find that hard to believe. There is nowhere in Nottingham or Leicester? — Jason Carter

I'm in Derby Association, not Derby city. Nottingham is 1h30m away, Leicester is 2h.

experienced ringers like you need to 1. find their own high level ringing, and 2. help to pull up those below you, to be more experience than they currently are. We all need to take responsibility for helping those less experienced
than we are. Someone taught us once. — Jason Carter

I wouldn't describe myself as "experienced", more like "stubborn". I spend much of my time helping those coming along behind me - I've taught handling to half of the people now ringing at my home tower, for example.

Ringing 2030 is not going to solve everything overnight, but it is a movement that is trying to move in the right direction. Don't give up on it John and please try and support it. — Jason Carter

I'd love to support it in whatever small way I can. I just can't see much sign of it in my area.

if you have done no surprise, you can't really rock up to a local surprise minor practice and ask to join in - there's just too much to learn — David Smith

I think too much fuss is made about Surprise, I found it was a bigger jump from Plain to TB methods than it was from TB to Surprise. I believe it's more important to teach people how to learn methods than it is to teach them specific classes of methods.

But the bottom line is that, if what you need is not available in your area, try to find some like-minded ringers and make it happen! — David Smith

You can't have 8 people all trying to get to grips with Major at the same time, more than 2 in at once and it's a struggle. You need a solid band.

One very small but helpful step that CC has already achieved has been to get the new North West residential course going, and one of the topics this course offers is "6 to 8", covering part of what you mention. — David Smith

I'm considering going on that this year, but the syllabus isn't available yet. I'm already ringing on 8 so I'll have to see if it's worthwhile, with all such courses, ringing something once a year is a waste of time unless there's follow-up in place. One of the things I've heard from people who taught at the last couple is that people are coming back a year later having made absolutely no further progress.

I also wonder why your local association is not offering anything to help. — David Smith

In the association as a whole it's mostly "social" events and there's no training at all in my district. There's an "8 bell practice for 'advanced beginners'" in a different district but it only seems to be running for the next 2 months, it says what they ring is going to depend on who turns up and for me it's a 3 hour round trip - I'm not inclined to spend twice as long as the practice travelling on an off-chance. My home association is a dead loss as far as training goes, and has been since I started.

The most active guild in the area is one that isn't associated with the CCCBR and people outside the area haven't heard about, which I think speaks volumes about the state of the associations around here.

This is the very situation that the Cast of 1000 had hoped to address. — David Kirkcaldy

What happened to that? It seems to have fallen my the wayside?

After attending a course the student needs to return to an environment where he/she can build on and consolidate what’s been learnt. — John Harrison

Yes, without opportunity for regular practice afterwards it's pretty pointless.

it does vary hugely geographically as to when you hit a barrier of not having enough ringers at a similar level wanting to make similar progress. — Lucy Chandhial

I agree, from what I've seen the situation is much better in some other areas. From what I've been told, things have not been good here (Greater Manchester) for many decades, I think it's therefore a poster child for how increasingly difficult it could become in other areas as the current generation of Surprise Major level ringers stop ringing.

Maybe there is one ringer near you who could persuade the band of elite ringers to host a supported practice for up and coming ringers even just four times a year? — Lucy Chandhial

There's no practically-accessible Major sessions in this area of my home association (Derby), most of the nearest towers are in Chester/Yorkshire/Lancashire.

There was a monthly Surprise Major practice in the Yorkshire Association which I found supportive & helpful, but that folded before Xmas. A Major QP group has started up in its place but I'm not at QP standard yet, so chicken, meet egg.

There's another fortnightly one in in the Chester Guild which I was going to but my fare was restricted to 2 half courses of Cambridge each fortnight. I asked repeatedly to ring Yorkshire as the ropesight is easier, one of my bugbears. I was point blank refused "Because the others wouldn't like it" (whatever that means). I always felt I was viewed as a bit of an encumbrance as the group was mostly people who want to ring spliced Surprise Major and not really a learning environment, so after Xmas I quietly dropped out. Nobody has been in touch, so I was right.

I'll probably keep chipping away at Bristol on the tower sim for my own amusement - the feedback I got at the weekend was that I clearly knew the method but needed to sharpen up the "wrong" work which I kinda knew already - it's the first method I've really rung with a mix of right/wrong work, so no big surprise, and getting to grips with it will pay off with Minor stuff. But as for ringing Major "for real", as I said, I've given that up as a lost cause.