Ringing Forums

Could your association invest in a comb binding machine? You'd have to store the pages loose until you had enough to bind, but if it's for association records it's probably something you'd only have to do once a year. And there are also places that will bind documents for you.

I'm no expert but if the goal is retention for many decades I suspect laser printing on archival grade paper is the way to go. I'm not sure about the long term stability of inkjet inks.

So perhaps something motivated you, John, which did not motivate the other members of your cohort? Do you know what it was? — Barbara Le Gallez

I've spent 40+ years thinking about, looking for and manipulating patterns that change dynamically (software engineer), so that bit felt familiar, and I learned to play Afro-Brazilian percussion to a high standard as an adult, so the rhythm side was familiar as well. I was also interested in the theoretical side of ringing from early on, although I'm no mathematician. Beyond that, large helpings of obsessiveness and stubbornness - I started ringing because it looked hard (I was right), I carried on because I wouldn't let it defeat me (it very nearly did).

So I think that means that I'm an outlier. My observations of the top level of ringers is that they usually are as well - they mostly started young, have the necessary mix of natural aptitudes, got the high level of support that's needed and most of all, they stuck at it. In my case my mid-50s start, lack of some of those aptitudes and the state of ringing where I live will impose a ceiling on my progress, but I haven't hit it yet and I haven't got bored trying to reach it yet.

That's not to say that the other people in my circle aren't motivated, but everyone's situation is different and therefore their degree of motivation, rate of progress and ultimate goals will differ as well, which is fine. @Lucy Chandhial's example of their RftK ringer is familiar and I think their approach is spot on - they are providing gentle prodding and support, but the pace is being driven by the ringer. I always try to remind myself that nobody takes up ringing with the intention of being bad at it, but it's one of the most difficult things an adult will learn from scratch.

And thanks for the invite :smile:

I now realise that the question I should have asked was "How to MOTIVATE a ringer who has reached a plateau and wishes to stay there, and becomes stressed when I guide her towards the next ascent? ... But - as a teacher I feel that it is my job to improve my ringers. And as a tower captain I feel that it is my job to ensure the succession - and this lady and her husband are the only ringers in the band who are capable of taking it forward into the future. — Barbara Le Gallez

Wow, there's a lot to unpack there. You say she's "reached a plateau and wishes to stay there" - isn't that your answer? To me, the job of a teacher, particularly when adults are involved, is to provide opportunities, encourage and support people's progress - and that's it. Have you actually asked them if they want to be the tower's "succession plan"? That's a big ask - and therefore you need to actually ask. People have every right to decide what they feel is "enough progress". Not one of the people who started ringing with has got anywhere near as far as I have - which isn't saying all that much. But that's fine, they turn up regularly and enjoy their ringing and their towers would be silent without them. Others do want to keep moving forwards, some more quickly than others and that's fine too. People have the right to decide, and we need to respect their decisions.

The obvious answer is "Don't try" - trying to do so will merely result in unhappy practice nights and sooner or later she will walk away. — Barbara Le Gallez

Yes. I almost certainly would.

As a "late starter" myself and as someone who is trying to help others climb up the hill behind me, I think the advice in the posts so far is excellent and aligns with my experience and observations. A couple of comments:

Lucy’s point about adults being uncomfortable with things they can’t do well is true. — John Harrison

This is absolutely right, but does vary from person to person - some adults are fine with it. And I think it depends on context, for example 1:1 sessions on a simulator can help give build confidence when doing it "for real" in a practice.

the sticking points are: moving on to methods and acquiring ropesight — Barbara Le Gallez

I think it's easy to underestimate just how big a jump it is from PH to even PB - the learner's Facebook groups are full of despondent ringers who have been stuck there for a long time. Multiple new skills are needed, particularly as most learners ring PH by bell number, even if they claim they don't. They have to simultaneously learn to count places, remember a method, develop ropesight and up their bell control for dodging. Anything you can do to help break that down into smaller steps will help them. In particular, endless failed attempts at PB just make things worse. We wouldn't expect someone learning an instrument to do it by playing in a performance, but in effect that's how ringing is usually taught.

If she can do that well then she must know where she should be, and she has a sense of going quicker or slower to get there. ... It shouldn’t be too onerous a step to extend that to things like continuous dodging or repeated place making, and then to treble dodge hunting. — John Harrison

We've had a lot of success with that approach, for example getting people to ring the front/back work of Double Oxford Bob, but in 3/4 rather than at the front/back, pairing them with an experienced ringer whilst the rest of the band rings rounds, then moving them to the front, and so on. Ringing the standard 2-courses-of-PBD-a-week they'd get to do 4 dodges, this way they get 6 in one short shot, and you can repeat until they are comfortable. We also use Minimus methods a lot, with 2 covers so the handling is easier. That's great for helping people develop ropesight as they only have to consider 3 other bells.

Think how she got to be in the wrong place, did she leave the back too soon, hint down too fast, miscount and mentally arrive at the dodge a blow later than she should? — John Harrison

One problem I've seen is that people can be adamant that they are counting places but what they are actually counting is pulls, pulls that don't actually correspond to places. I think standing with them and doing what what John suggests might help?

I think it all depends how far gone they are. Ours got pretty disgusting due to the hand gel used during COVID. I clean ours with warm water and a tiny drop of washing up liquid, if they are really bad by briefly dunking them in the water, otherwise just wiping them repeatedly with a cloth. If necessary, I've used a soft nailbrush to get the gunk out from between the strands. The key thing it to be gentle and patient, you may have to go over them repeatedly - you'll need to rehydrate the goop to get it off. And they will take a considerable time to dry out afterwards.

Here's what Avon Ropes say, which is basically the same thing:

Hemp and Flax are textiles, we would suggest you can use some weak washing liquid/powder and wash them in some warm soapy water for a short period of time which will remove most dirt, you can use a scrubbing brush, but try to keep the time they're wet for as short as possible. We will suggest you allow the ropes to drip dry in a warm room or laid on a radiator. You will notice the natural fibre tail ends get looser and may never return to your original stiffness, even when re-acclimatised within the tower. We suggest you do not get the rope near the sally, or get the sally wet.

We will add a disclaimer to this that Avon Ropes Ltd accept no liability for this advice. Each tower is different, the rope fibres are at different ages and have had different conditions through their life, so anyone washing bell ropes does so at their own risk.

I run mid-week daytime improvers group sessions, I am sure like many others do. These are aimed at mature learners and utilises a branch ringing centre with simulator facilities. — Paul Wotton

We run small group sessions, and have done since I started teaching people. At the start it was a handling session, as people progressed it's moved on to learning methods. It works extremely well, it's a low pressure environment and people can discuss and go over the same thing as many times as they need. It means that band practices are much more productive as people come far better prepared. This approach should be standard practice, the current way most teaching is done is like expecting someone to learn an instrument by playing in gigs...

true, and there will be other towers which have traditional sound control or which don't have an issue with unrestricted ringing - but having a simulator is at least a starting point for identifying candidates.

One possible option would be to have access to the church or church hall for up to an hour before a district practice so that people could meet and find a quiet place to talk but still in a defined space with other ringers around them. — Lucy Chandhial

One to one mentoring already happens, informally or formally, so I’m surprised by the suggestion that it’s not needed. — John Harrison

I run 1 hour sessions each week in the tower with the simulator and a tied bell. There's only 1 or 2 people present and they usually come with something specific they want to look at. There's as much discussion as there is ringing and it's a completely different feel to normal practices, far more relaxed and if they want to (say) spend 15 minutes nailing their 5/6 down dodges, they can. It wasn't difficult to organise and the feedback I've had has been very positive. The benefits have been obvious in subsequent band practices.

I was pondering this earlier this week, there are 223 towers in Dove with simulators. To have a simulator installed suggests the tower has an interest in teaching beyond just regular practice nights. What would it take to set up a "dating agency" to allow people to book a tower + tutor on (say) a Saturday morning?

It depends a lot on what you are aiming to achieve but in our district we find training sessions which include a theory session are well received (sometimes on zoom and sometimes in the tower before ringing starts). — Lucy Chandhial

I’m not aware of group mentoring outside of courses, but it could offer the benefits that come from shared learning. It could also be easier to match the numbers of available mentors to those needing mentoring. — John Harrison

As I've said on another thread, I'm running a theory session tomorrow for our band, something that was specifically asked for at the last tower AGM. I also floated the idea on one of the Facebook learner's groups and had about 40 expressions of interest, so I do think there's a demand.

With such obvious benefits I wonder why it is so rare. — John Harrison

Perhaps it's a case of "We've always done it this way"? Whilst it's true that at the beginning learners mainly want to just get onto the end of a rope and ring, I think they get to a point where they realise they need to know something about the theoretical side, if only so they can decipher the gobbledygook the "Grown Ups" keep using. A wise ringer told me "Always keep your theoretical knowledge ahead of your practical ability", which turned out to be excellent advice. I do wonder how much lack of theoretical understanding plays in people getting "blocked" at the Plain Bob stage? by-rote Circle Of Work will get you so far, but I think it's as much of a dead end as ringing by bell number is.

There’s also a Learning Curve article: https://cccbr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/200412.pdf — John Harrison

Thanks, I'll add that to my references slide, along with the other ones mentioned in that article, and any others that seem appropriate.

I had read that Learning Curve article some time ago (I've read them all) and interestingly I've made the same points that you made in that article, so perhaps some of it did stick after all :smile:

I'm definitely going to see how it goes with my home tower first, the whole thing could fall flat and need a serious rethink - although I have asked a number of "grown ups" to review the content in advance, so fingers crossed. I suppose could go via ART as I'm an M1 teacher but the slides would need redoing to be in ART's style. But whatever route I choose, I don't want to get bogged down in months of "Having value added", no matter how well intentioned.

it is quite likely that there is something similar already out there — Lucy Chandhial

There's some, but not a lot. What is out there tends to be either too simple and focussed on learning individual methods (ART) or too complicated for the target audience (W. G. Wilson). There is some material that is closer, a Whiting Society booklet and the PDF of an out-of-print CCCBR booklet, both of which I've stolen from shamelessly. But even those contain material that I think is too advanced for the target audience so I've left a lot out. And even then I'm concerned that I may be pitching too high - we'll see.

But even if this is a roaring success it's not going to address the issue of how people progress to higher levels of ringing.

That doesn’t follow. The societies are just smaller versions of the CC. They are federations that can support, and do some things better done collectively across an area, but with ringing as it is currently organised, ie in tower bands, they societies are still removed from the coal face. — John Harrison

I sincerely hope it doesn't follow, hence the question. Because most of the ones I ring in are pretty rubbish.

I don’t see why it should. That’s a separate question. Even with a DMO action (as opposed to ideas, resources, support, etc) would still be needed at local level. — John Harrison

If it doesn't mean that I'm puzzled as to why mention of it has been expunged from the CC website ("I'm not sure how many times I have tried to remove that particular page ... from the website") If you want people to know what your goals are it seems a bit odd to remove them from view.

"DMO"? Debt Management Operations? Defence Mobilization Order? District Malaria Officer?

We are a six bell tower, with a modest repertoire, ringing CCs Plain Bob and Grandsire 5. We have 9 enthusiastic ringers. We run a tied bell practice every week using simulated sound, as well as our practice night. I run ad hoc training sessions for teaching bell handling (ART) and ringing the sim. These are for any ringers in the area. The CCCBR hasn't done any of this for us, I wouldn't expect it to - it is our initiative. — Phillip George

That sounds very like my home tower, both in terms of level and what we are doing. But the original subject of this discussion was about more advanced method ringing, it's difficult to see how that can be sustained nationally without a national effort - which is what the CCCBR is there for, surely?

I am trying to build a culture of being pro-active so that when I stop ringing others are able to continue, knowing how ringing works (important), and to the high standards we are aspiring to. — Phillip George

That's commendable and your tower are lucky to have you. But you doesn't scale nationally, that's where the CCCBR should be stepping in.

But I do also think there is a misconception that the CCCBR should make things happen which forgets that the CCCBR is a representation of ringers and that things happen when ringers make them happen. — Lucy Chandhial

That sounds like the expectation might be that the existing associations are going to do the delivery. Does that mean that the idea of the CCCBR as a direct membership organisation has been dropped?

I'm also dubious that a strategy based on associations delivering any of this is viable, although there are notable exceptions. If associations were responding to the needs of ringers there wouldn't need be a need for R2030 in the first place.

I feel that R2030 has become mired in Analysis Paralysis and that there are useful things that could be delivered quickly and easily and with minimal planning. For example I'm running a "How do I learn methods?" theory session for my tower next weekend. Over the weekend I asked on one of the learner ringer's Facebook groups if there would be any interest in in such a thing delivered as an online session. I've had around 40 positive responses so far, including "Happy to pay for the privilege". I'm going to see how the session for our tower goes first and the material would need tweaking as it's geared towards our needs, but I may go ahead and run something. If I do it will be completely outside any of the associations or CCCBR, it will be available nationally and I'll need to fund it myself.

I'm not the person who should be thinking about doing this, I'm still learning myself and am literally just a few pages further on in the book than the audience. But it both depresses and annoys me to see people desperate for help in the Learner's FB group who aren't getting it, their "teaching" consisting of being verbally harassed during their once-a-week attempts at a plain course of Plain Bob. Frankly, the ringing community should be ashamed of itself.

a core group of people are putting energy into it and want to achieve the goal that no one hits barriers to their development in ringing by 2030. — Lucy Chandhial

As above, mention of that has been removed from the CCCBR website. Does that mean it's no longer a goal?

I only have this as a link on Facebook but it was Radio 4, 16th March at 9:24. — Lucy Chandhial

The original is at https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00291nx, you need to skip 23:00 in.

https://cccbr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/learning-methods.pdf is pretty good as well.

I'm not sure how many times I have tried to remove that particular page (Strategic Priorities 2020-2023) from the website. Those strategic priorities were from before Ringing 2030, and exist there in probably a more nuanced fashion. — Tina

If you mean https://web.archive.org/web/20250301103845/https://cccbr.org.uk/about/executive/strategic-priorities-2020-2023/ it does seem to have gone from the CCCBR site, although I don't really understand the reasoning behind the removal. The page I quoted from is not that one however, it is https://cccbr.org.uk/ringing-2030/

It is true there is a big gap (both in skills and in the number of ringers have those skills) at precisely the place where John de Overa is feeling frustrated. But we can't magic up numbers that don't exist, so feeding the hopper, and keeping it fed in a sustainable way is where our focus is right now. — Tina

That sounds awfully like "We aren't going to try to do anything about that gap". I hope I'm wrong but if not, it doesn't matter how many people you "feed into the hopper" if there's no support for them to progress, method ringing will continue to die.

Ringing 2030 isn’t a scheme in the sense of a named activity or programme of activities. It’s more a vision and strategy to first decide what needs to change and then look at ways to make the change. ... And all of this will take time. ... Many are starting with research, trials and tests to see what actions are most effective but there are also actions, it’s just unlikely that these will cover all towers in a significant way quickly because it takes time for activity to spread and build. — Lucy Chandhial

It [Ringing 2030] has been instigated by the Central Council Executive and was introduced to Council members at the Annual Meeting in September 2022.

I'm sorry but in 2 1/2 years, as far as I can tell, stuff all concrete has happened, with the possible exception of the Young Ringers effort. The last thing the CCCBR needs is more "research", "trials" etc. The approaching crisis has been known about long before I started ringing and the only response there's been is more CC waffle and dithering.

At this point WHAT is done doesn't matter, all that matters is that SOMETHING PRACTICAL is done. It doesn't matter if the majority of things that are tried fail, because a minority of something is always going to be infinitely more than all of absolutely nothing.

My original point about R2030 being DOA couldn't be underlined any more starkly.

My local guild run a monthly surprise major practice. I don't go as the striking is generally terrible. IMO there is far too much emphasis on pushing on to ring more complex stuff, rather than ringing things well. — Andrea Haynes

That's a Catch 22 even I've seen - poor practices which put off the good ringers they need so much and things just spiral downwards. What I've also noticed is that if Major practices are infrequent they tend to be oversubscribed when they do happen, and the attendees have a very wide range of ability, so they aren't particularly great for anyone.

A kind of heatmap of the point at which you need to travel more than one hour to reach a developmental practice at least once a month. — Lucy Chandhial

That sounds like an excellent idea.

Ringing Bristol Major would put you somewhere in the top 10-20% of ringers. Its not unreasonable to expect to have to travel to participate in an activity at that level. — Jonathan Frye

Absolutely, but there are limits. For example for someone who is working, travelling 2 hours to a practice on a weekday evening isn't practical. And it's not just a question of travelling time, I made a 3 hour round trip on a recent weekend to ring my first wobbly touches of Bristol, but I likely won't have another opportunity for months. What's also needed is regular (preferably weekly) opportunities.