Ringing Forums

Very few I suspect. — John Harrison

Everyone at my previously-moribund-for-decades home tower (all adults) is now aiming to ring methods, even if it's only simple ones. The branch practice I went to last night (all adults) didn't ring any CCs, the rounds that were rung were for an adult learner who is ringing with the band after around 5 sessions, the rest was all Minor method ringing. And here's a quote from one of the ART learner's Facebook group from earlier today (the author is an adult), the latest on a recurring theme:

I’m frustrated that my local Association offers nothing for the intermediate ringers. For whatever reason I am not included in advanced ringing locally, or even Association quarter peals, apart from a couple I have set up myself. The response to this would be that my striking is not good enough, but there has been no help from the Association to help me to improve. Although advanced practices have been scheduled they are cancelled 95% of the time. Nearly all the resources of the Association are fed into the Young ringers. As an older person I feel my ambitions are not important to the Association and I’d like to change things for the better.

Even if people like that are in a minority, their existence is a sign of failure.

For most I think it's more likely a combination of not being given the vision of what ringing could be, not being taught and developed well enough to get to the point where they could realise it for themselves, and absorbing the culture of the band into which they were recruited. — John Harrison

Yes, I think you are right. We are failing to provide the necessary environment and support for people to keep progressing.

I was merely stating (what I believe) the numbers are. — John Harrison

Hmm, yes, the numbers. I don't think we actually know how many ringers there are, let's assume 30,000, and let's assume 95% are in the "blue zone", as per the famous articles. Let's be conservative and assume only 5% are both sufficiently motivated and capable of moving into the "red zone". That's nearly 1,500 people who can already ring, we don't need to recruit them. How many youth ringers have we recruited so far? How can ringing afford to ignore the potential of adult learners, even if they do take a bit longer to train?

By 'doing it' I didn't just mean experienced ringers who ring by themselves, I meant the activists who as well as doing a lot of ringing also do teaching and development of other ringers, but do so 'in the present'. — John Harrison

I think it's great that is happening and I'm grateful to the experienced ringers who do contribute so much time and effort, but there are many more who don't are only interested in ringing with their mates. The minority who care and act on it don't scale up to what's required, and burnout seems like a big risk. I don't know what model would work best, but it seems clear the current one is failing.

That described me n my teens. I rang several nights a week, cycled miles at weekends to ringing, taught lots of other youngsters to ring and we developed a moribund tower to become leading QP tower in the county. — John Harrison

I don't see anything in there that requires being a teenager?

Our community of practice is numerically dominated by people whose interest is less in the art of ringing and more on doing something for their church on Sunday morning. — John Harrison

What proportion of them are doing that because they've been repeatedly told that's all they are good for and have restricted their horizons accordingly?

And among those who are focused on the art of ringing, many just want to get on with 'doing', so their view of preserving the heritage would be to ensure that others like them can carry on 'doing'. — John Harrison

Except that's not preserving anything, it's choosing to let the heritage die out with them.

The UNESCO site mentions "Community Support Hubs":

We've partnered with a number of organisations who cover different parts of the country and the different categories of living heritage, so if you have any questions relating to your type of living heritage or your region, they should be your first people to get in touch with.

The Community Support Hubs will be running throughout the call for submissions and are there to answer any questions and provide guidance tailored to your region or area of living heritage.

That page includes The Heritage Alliance, their 2020 annual report makes specific mention of bellringing in the form of Ringing Remembers, on pages 26-26. The CCCBR logo is on the page, so presumably there is an existing relationship witb them?

yep, that all sounds right to me. As far as I can tell, the clock is already ticking - which is a bit ridiculous as it's taken them 2 years to get the thing under way.

I think one of the things that needs to start straight away is meeting the community consent requirement:

Community consent is the process of getting agreement or approval of your community of practice on the decision to submit an element to the inventories.

'Prior’ means that consent was given before the living heritage was submitted to the inventories.

How do I gather community consent? / What do we need to include to demonstrate consent?

The process for gaining consent from the community of practice will vary and will be informed by the community’s customary decision-making processes. It could include (but is not limited to) a vote of hands at a meeting, an online poll, an exchange of emails or a collection of signatures, but we are not setting specific requirements and would ask that you demonstrate consent in the way that is best suited to your community of practice.

And there's only 4 months until the submission date:

We will keep the call for submission period open for around four months. We tried to find the balance between giving people enough time to write a submission and get community consent and not making the process too long.

https://livingheritage.unesco.org.uk/info/faqs

So change ringing in hand isn’t cultural heritage? — John Harrison

That's an interesting question, should they be registered together or separately? What about in-hand ringing that is tunes rather than changes?

https://handbells.org.uk/

Presumably it makes sense to have one organised entry than multiple similar but different entries for bellringing? — Lucy Chandhial

They specifically ask for groups to coordinate to avoid duplicate registrations, so yes.

The submission process for this is finally open:

*We're pleased to announce that the call for submissions to the inventories
of living heritage in the UK is now open!*

You can visit our website here [https://www.livingheritage.unesco.org.uk/]
for more information. There's a comprehensive guidance
<https://livingheritage.unesco.org.uk/info/guidance> page detailing the
steps needed for submissions, along with extensive FAQs
<https://livingheritage.unesco.org.uk/info/faqs>.

There are a range of ways to get involved, including:

- Community Support Hubs
<https://livingheritage.unesco.org.uk/get-involved/community-support> -
we have 11 organisations who are helping to provide support and advice
- Information sessions
<https://livingheritage.unesco.org.uk/get-involved/info-sessions> -
we're running regular online sessions where we'll cover the basics of the
inventories and applying
- Review panel members
<https://livingheritage.unesco.org.uk/get-involved/review-panel> - if
you'd be interested in helping review submissions, please send us an EOI
- Plus we'll be adding details about workshops on Community Consent and
other specific areas soon...

We'll be open for submissions until Friday 27 March 2026, but inventory
submissions will be an ongoing, live process, so there will be future calls
for submissions too.

exploring alternative practices may be frowned upon by some locally, and there is the challenge of feeling like you've abandoned another group. — Tristan Lockheart

From talking to long-term skilled ringers one of the common themes is that when they learned they rang a lot, at different towers, and they encourage learners to do the same. On the other hand I know a lot of not very skilled skilled ringers who have only ever rung at one tower, and can sometimes frown on those who are more peripatetic. So I think if you want to get on, you have to get out & about, and I think that's probably always been the case?

I wonder how many ringers we have out there who would like to progress further given the opportunity, and are not able to as there is little or no culture of progression or improvement at their tower? — Tristan Lockheart

If the answer is more than "none", it's too many. It's not just the culture in their home tower that can be the issue, there needs to be somewhere for them to actually go to, and that will welcome them. When I started, a ringer who came to help out at my home tower quietly took me aside and told me "Talk to TC X about getting her to teach you at her tower - before you kill yourself." It was good advice, and I've never just rung at one tower since then.

Since then I have had to accept that the collective decision of my band is to stick with ringing at a low level ... they are looking at turning the church into a community asset — Barbara Le Gallez

I'm sorry to hear that :sad: Hopefully the bells will be kept available at your tower, and you can find another practice in your area where you can fulfil your personal ringing aspirations. Good luck!

And I'm sorry you've decided to persistently misrepresent what I've said. I'm done with this exchange.

But for any group activity to survive, it must have the ability to encompass the needs and aspirations of the least competent / least knowledgeable as well as the more / most advanced. — Mike Shelley

If you are talking about an individual practice then that's like saying Sunday League players should be able to rock up at Premiership practices. If you are talking about ringing as a whole then yes, or course, different practices are at different levels.

I've seen what happens to practices that try to be "all things to all men". The learners get pissed off because there are too many of them and they spend most of their time sitting out and making glacial progress, they often quit ringing. The experienced ringers don't mind ringing in support but when it gets to the point where they don't get any ringing that's "for them", they get pissed off and stop coming as well. There's a happy medium but maintaining it can be difficult, takes a lot of planning and if the imbalance gets too severe (on either side), impossible.

Your QP grouping example is not exclusionary — Mike Shelley

Really? It's invite-only.

those people need to acknowledge that, by monopolising practice sessions, they are consciously or subconsciously debarring those of “less than adequate” qualification. — Mike Shelley

In my experience the majority of any "monopolising" is done by the "Determined Underachievers" who will blissfully crash about for an entire practice unless they are asked to sit down.

A tower near me has their practice evenings in two parts — Mike Shelley

Yes, they've solved the problem by having two practices at two different levels on the same day.

nobody is talking about "culling" anybody, but for all group activities it's a fact of life that there will be a wide range of abilities and that it's in everyone's best interests if the match between people in a particular group is satisfactory for everyone involved. And ability isn't a fixed thing either.

There's a monthly 8-bell QP group in an association I ring in, I'd love to ring in it but I don't yet have the necessary skills (although I'm working on it). You can either see that as being exclusionary, or realistic - if they want to build their skills and score regular QPs then they need people who can do that. Or take a visiting band that's coming to our tower to ring a Surprise Major QP. Would it be reasonable to expect them to include any of our ringers? No.

Definitely as part of a recruitment it makes sense to explain your expectations or your usual practice as a band. — Lucy Chandhial

We absolutely do this. We try to do it in a positive way, "We would love to help you learn ring methods, it's going to be challenging and fun", not "If you can't ring methods you'll be out". And when we decided as a band that we would work towards method ringing, it was discussed and agreed at our AGM by the whole band. That did result on one long-term ringer eventually leaving. We'd have loved to have them along for the journey, but it was their choice and we respected that - there was no ill feeling on either side and we keep prodding them to come back :smile:

it's more complicated than you suggest. 'continues to attend shows that they are getting "something" from the activity' is all fine and well for the individual, but it's a very one sided approach as it ignores everyone else in the band. Fine if they are striving to do what they've decided to "stick at" to the very best of their ability. Fine if they understand they will be spending more time sat out as the rest of the band progresses and are happy with that. What isn't fine is insisting on always ringing "their" bell even if they make a total hash of it. It's not fine if they won't take advice on correcting faults. It's not fine if they insist on having "their share" of rope time even if that means the rest of a band are held back. It's not fine if they insist on ringing by bell number and expect to ring touches or anything that's not trivial. And yes, I've seen all of those in real life.

None of this is black and white of course, and most bands are happy to accommodate a wide range of skills. But someone joining a Surprise band and expecting to just be able to bong behind is going to have an unhappy experience.

I don't think its an either/or some of us make bell ringing a major part of our life and some just want to dip in and out and we should accomodate that without being too judgemental about people who don't share our passion. — Tom Ridgman

Well, up to a point, yes. Some time ago we took a decision as a band that we wanted to move things forwards, which meant everyone had to be prepared to learn new things, do "homework" and generally up their game. Ringing is a team activity and therefore a two-way commitment, someone who turns up and expects the rest of the tower to cater to them whilst not reciprocating is being selfish and thoughtless, and I think that's the scenario @Barbara Le Gallez was faced with - "Determined Underachievers". Such people can end up being a significant drag on a tower's resources and end up holding others back. It's always a difficult call as it can be hard to distinguish between "Slow learner" / "Reached their limit" and "Can't be bothered" but if it's the latter I think that should be reflected in the amount of time spent on them. If that means they decide to leave, so be it. At least you get the time they sucked away back to dedicate to others.

Hi John, how is this working out in practice? — Neil McGann

After practicing on the simulator over the last two of weeks, during last night's practice the furthest on of them successfully rang her first touches of Grandsire Doubles, inside & affected, without a stander. I started ringing there 10 years ago, last night was the first time the tower band had rung touches of anything in at least the last 50 years.

Both her and the person coming up behind her have worked extremely hard on ropesight, striking and place counting and have developed what can be summed up as "situational awareness". That's been transformative both for them as individuals and for the band as they have the skills needed to "ring around" wobbly ringers, so we can keep things going whereas before they'd have fired up.

One benefit of ringing Minimus that's become very clear is it's much easier to develop a mental picture of what's going on because there are fewer bells to think about, and once you have the rudiments of that it's much easier to extend it to higher numbers, rather than trying to start with higher numbers.

Other things have helped too - our new vicar is a Surprise Major ringer and we've had a couple of visits from a "returning ringer" who lives in the town and used to ring at Surprise level some time ago, we are hoping to persuade him to keep coming. It does feel like we might have reached an inflection point - there's serious talk of QPs, which, as far as we can tell, would be the first rung by the tower band in 140 years.

This is where the bandwidth thing comes in. Before starting you need to know the method well enough that recall isn't taking up the majority of your thinking capacity. You also need to get ahead of the game so you are thinking about what comes up in the next few blows rather than thinking about what I am doing now. Once you have this capacity then there is space to think about other useful things like what order the bells are going to come at you, what is the treble doing, can I get my handling just right, how does the (whole) change sound, what rhythm are the back bells setting and do I fit into it, etc. — Jonathan Frye

My ringing teacher would frequently look at me after I crashed out and say "You've run out of brain again, haven't you". She was dead right. The more time I've spent ringing the slower everything appears to have got - it hasn't of course, I've just got better. The people in our tower starting to ring methods talk about this frequently, "situational awareness" is mentioned a lot, shorthand for what you describe.

All of that is a lot to think about and its impossible to do at first. But bandwidth is a trainable skill, you can effectively increase your "processing speed" which gives you more capacity to think about more at once. — Jonathan Frye

Yes, it takes suggestions on what things might work for someone (everyone is different) and practice. Lots of it. One of our ringers who is making good progress sometimes cocks up because she's now able to get "ahead of the line" and loses focus on what's she needs to finish doing first.

The easiest way to do what? Not the easiest way to develop core change ringing skills like appreciating and being able to control speed and position. It distracts from them. — John Harrison

I never said it was, I said it was common practice, I'm sure that's not because they want to distract anyone from learning "properly". But virtually all the conductors I've encountered put people right by telling who they are after, not what place they are in. And yes, if they don't know what place that puts them in then the "correction" will only last for a couple of blows at best.

The focus at practice nights and the instructions we give are very much on looking at a bell - follow that bell, look at that bell. — Charlotte Boyce

Yes we do, it's understandable as it's the easiest way but it does further reinforce the "by bell number" approach of CCs. Last week I stood behind one of our ringers who is just starting PH6. She was insistent I told her the bell numbers in advance, I was insistent I wouldn't :naughty: As she rang I pointed at each bell whilst counting places. Afterwards she said she knew in advance when a speed change was coming up and "I can see how that would work on 8". Contrast that with another ringer who's been ringing for much longer but point blank refuses to ring anything without several minutes of muttering bell numbers beforehand, even though we've told him the problems with that until we are blue in the face. The first ringer was "ringing ahead" of her bell, the second is always ringing behind someone else's, usually badly.

We are starting a series of articles in Ringing Round Devon on how an experienced ringer rings - what they hear, see, how they strike and how they ring by rhythm, how they concentrate, how they learn learn a method. They are the things perhaps people have traditionally been expected to pick up or read about, but perhaps we need to talk about them more, and pass on experience rather than expect osmosis to work. — Charlotte Boyce

That sounds very interesting and much needed. The "bandwidth" thing is key and I think lack of understanding the challenges can be one reason why good ringers get frustrated when trying to teach learners, it's difficult for them to comprehend the challenges. Perhaps those teachers should be made to ring with earplugs and horse blinkers whilst someone shouts random directions from a satnav to them, waving their hands around frantically at the same time? :rofl:

Could you post a link here when the article comes out? It sounds like it would be helpful to some people in my tower.