Ringing Forums

I am not a peal ringer so am probably not well placed to comment, but an 'external' perspective may assist.

Is this another reflection of what is discussed more generally about ringing and ringers ... the numbers, the commitment. the expectations? There are a few specific points spring to my mind -

- Safeguarding - This is an additional factor that complicates any activity involving under 18s that did not arise a few years ago.

- Transport - The opportunities for a few people including under 18s, to go on public transport or by bike to a tower for a peal are far more limited now. Cars and drivers are almost essential. Having said that, more young people seem to own a car now, even when at college / university or soon after.

- Time - 3 hours plus travel is a lot of time when people have many other interests and commitments. But working hours used to be much, much longer and many manual occupations were physically exhausting.

- Noise - are there more concerns about disturbing a neighbourhood and is there less acceptance of 3hours of ringing?

- .... but aren't they easier to arrange now by emails, rather than letters by post?

Correctly made and installed swift boxes should prevent the swifts (and other birds) from accessing the tower interior so the bell installation will not be affected. The boxes are accessible by the swifts from the exterior and totally enclosed on the tower interior.

Look at the item and pictures here - https://belfryupkeep.cccbr.org.uk/docs/020-permissions/

Using one system for all ringers may be much more cost-effective not only for Member Mojo but other systems as well. Most societies pay separately for insurance, for example.

We should also consider the valuable time spent by volunteers who prepare and negotiate policies and procedures separately for each society, and sometime even at branch / district level. With the shortage of volunteers, shouldn't we consider more sharing and common systems?

John's 2 ringers per bell is a helpful guide, but perhaps also think about the circumstances of the individuals. Are some about to go to university and perhaps not return? Or, dare I say it, of an age where they may not continue for more than a few years?

Also, what are their specific interests - is there succession for the person who knows and about maintenance, or the kind people who don't ring so much but organise all the outings, cleaning, cake making, quarter peals, wedding ringing? Are there newcomers assisting and hence learning with all these activities as well as the ringing itself?

If, as you say, other towers in the town are really out of the question for resurrecting ringing, then what about helping neighbouring towns / villages? It is very likely that another tower within a few miles would welcome the assistance from some ready made ringers. Cooperation is what will be essential if ringing is to build up again.

And it could be asked why a tower is really 'beyond repair'? Sometimes, a bell project led by an enthusiastic person or small team, will be able to raise a lot of money for a bell project and also help the church rejuvenate. It may be that the roof repairs, heating bills etc are too daunting for the current PCC and wardens, but a few new supporters taking new approaches with different interests become the strength to resolve a set of bigger issues!

A lot of interesting information in here (for which thank you). However, some is drifting into fire protection not sound control, and some of the sound control is about external control rather than increasing sound levels for ringers inside.

Is it worth starting a new section on fire protection?

Thanks Andrew for the RW reference

Yes, and that is probably helped by the Italians definitely classifying their ringing as MUSIC. This is since they do ring recognisable 'tunes' using some of their ringing styles. They also make a very visible presence to the public with mini rings at ringing festivals (and other festivals) etc etc in town squares. But this is not throughout Italy - just in certain areas. They perhaps focus on quality not quantity of rings and ringing across the country. Similarly in the parts of Belgium, France and Holland where they have carillons.

John - you are correct that the competence levels will vary widely but in the first instance we are attempting to find out some broad numbers for any / all those you suggest.

We hear that the number of people willing and able to do maintenance work in belfries seems to be reducing, and that their age profile is very high (mainly over 60). Their diversity is almost exclusively white male! So, what capabilities are available and what are we doing as ringers to make sure that we will have people in future who are competent to help maintain the bells that we ring?

So a few categories could be used even though these won't have hard boundaries -

eg

• - very basic checks and routine maintenance in home tower, those learning but with little experience
• - more major work, but still within the scope of Faculty Rules List A. Those with experience in a wider range of installations
• - more substantial work such as some items in Faculty Rules List B. Those able to advise and help others widely
• - significant involvement during major project work eg renovation / installation that would require a Faculty and professional bell hangers
  
  An indication of whether the individuals are mature (eg over about 50) or relatively younger would provide a further insight about capabilities for the future.
  
  Gender and ethnicity is likely to expose individuals so we must be cautious about collecting or sharing such data.

Even though inclusion was not feasible previously, that hopefully will not stop another application (or whatever is required).

Why should it be included -
History and heritage - and we have lots of evidence - newspapers, peal boards, books, etc
Business - bell hanging companies and their history
Physical exercise - not just the ringing but climbing the stairs and working in bell chambers provides more effort than many gyms
Mental learning, understanding, recall
Maths - group theory in methods, but also applied maths for the compound pendular (ie bell and clapper motion) plus forces / stresses on towers
Geography and geology - influence on architecture and structure of towers, England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, but also som international - USA, France, Belgium, Italy etc
Design and engineering - towers and the bell installaitons
Age independent
Wide community engagement - gender, race, etc neutral
Green and eco - no power needed for the ringing (the travel for tower grabbing is more questionable, but most activities have that and more besides!)
Public demand - Christmas, weddings, funerals, state occasions .... - the public expect it to happen but few don't realise what is involved until shown!

What else?

What is required for the application?
We can probably find the necessary contributions.

On the wider issue of the security of the towers where we ring and ringers, there is information offered by the CCCBR here:

https://runningatower.cccbr.org.uk/docs/healthsafety/security/

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2023/17-february/news/uk/church-closures-disproportionately-higher-in-low-income-areas-research-finds

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2023/30-june/news/uk/instead-of-closure-churches-might-be-allowed-to-lie-fallow

Two articles that may be of relevance, if you have access to copies of The Church Times

Yes, I agree, that we are wanting to promote Ringing 2030 and need some clear and succinct information to share. I too have been asked for a simple summary and can't find anything to offer other than various items such as the YYY report, powerpoint, information in the CCCBR AGM papers and the recording of Simon's AGM weekend discussion (which, sadly is not very clear). I know that all these exist and where to find them; 99.9% of ringers would not be able to do so.

I am picking up this thread again, having been on the W&P open day yesterday. What an excellent event! Plenty of good refreshments - why had I bothered to take a packed lunch and a flask? Helpers and marshals at every tower, people organising traffic, etc etc. Even a prize for those who grabbed all 24 towers! That was relatively readily managed and I saw several people in Petersfield collecting their winnings!

I may have been fortunate, but we had some good ringing, There were a lot of people about - both regular participants at open days adding to a nearly full set of ticks in their copy of Dove, and also quite a few younger ringers and those who were having their first taste of an open day.

So I do hope that the effort put into the event by the District and Guild will be well rewarded by a large contributing to the Ropley bell fund.

More generally, it looks as if open days could still be a success - it will be interesting to hear the views of the organisers. Thank you to them for what they provided on Saturday. It was a long day for us as participants so it must have been all the more so for those involved in the organisation! Thank you again!

John Harrison is touching on my own thoughts on this. People have inherent different learning abilities and mechanisms but some may develop the skills more than others. This will depend on their interests and support. From personal experience, friends during my school days could learn by rote, vast lengths of poetry, plays, music scores, etc. They would be highly commended and supported in their endeavours. I found rote learning almost impossible - even one line of a walk on part in the crowd for the school house play!

Learning methods has remained a challenge for me from my student days to now. 'Dodge, lead seconds, treble bob' is almost the limit of my memory capacity and even that gets confused as I try to ring it the other way in the second half of the plain course! The physical actions are basically all the same i.e. handling the rope, but putting the bell in the right place requires recall of the sequence first.

Conversely, ask me to remember how to operate a mechanical machine that requires a long series of precise eye and hand actions from memory comes easily for me. Each action requires mental recall but also is accompanied by a different physical action. So learning to drive a car was quick for me, as was and still is how to operate complex lab and professional equipment. (Having said that computer controlled equipments where operation is only through presses on a key board are more of a nightmare for me!)

Educationalists recognise that there are different learning styles and mechanisms - I gave a basic talk on the topic at an ART conference in Birmingham several years ago. I am sure there is much more academic knowledge that could be relevant on the topic of learning at different ages and with different learning styles.

This is worth a listen - there is more discussion about the changes in church attendance than bells, but the Marinelli Foundry in Italy features.

Barbara - do you have access to the back issues of the Ringing World? I provided the relevant issue numbers in my earlier post. There may be further advertisers in response to the request recently.

I would advise not applying anything like a paste to the slider as that will simply collect stone dust and other debris from the tower. This will create what is effectively a grinding paste that will wear the slider and certainly not reduce the friction.

.... to partly answer my own question, I have found adverts in The Ringing World e.g. in issues 5819 and 5788. There is also an advert in the Lichfield & Walsall Handbook for 2021/22.
Are these offers still open?

There is also a request for suppliers of peal boards to make themselves known in this week's RW - issue 5853.

We have done a little more searching and can see that there are some other woods that have rather similar mechanical properties to ash, at least considering the properties that are likely to be of concern if making and using a stay.

Beech and hornbeam may be appropriate - Bearing in mind the lack of precision with which stays may be made and the variability in timber samples I can’t see that small differences in properties as quoted for different timbers would be significant.

Has any one tried beech or hornbeam? Beech certainly can grow with long straight grain without any knots - that is essential. Larch (mentioned earlier) is probably less suitable - it is softer and often grows with frequent branching so likely to have knots

We lost some learners who were showing progress during their 'free' practices as they thought that they were doing something like "try before you buy". They wanted to go to learn properly as they would expect to do to learn to play football, French, art classes etc.