Ringing Forums

The TC certainly isn't inexperienced or uninterested and I don't know what efforts have been made to explain things to the learner or to help them understand how to do things. But it is something I came acros often - learner struggles with something and no attempt is made to find out WHAT they are finding difficukt or WHY they are going wrong. It can somethines be a reallysimply misunderstanding. Other times they have not been told HOW to learn a method or even told to learn anything at all - just told to catch hold and are 'talked through' bob minor without any explanation.

I haven't had time to read all the posts, so someone may already have said something similar. I occasionally visit a tower which has a few learners. One can plain hunt quite reliably on 6 and 8 to bob minor and major - touches are more or less ok on 6 . But when they tried to do treble bob to Cambridge S6, it was clear they really did not know what they were supposed to be doing. I asked afterwards how they were doing it, and what the problem was. They cannot manage to both count places and see what bell they should be ringing after, let alone the difference betewee Up and Down dodges. I suggested thay they ask to try treble bob hunt as the order of the bells is easier. I don't know if this has been followed through. Last week they tried Bob Minor inside - not for the first time. Again, it was clear that they did not know how they should be trying to ring it, and again they cannot count what place they are in and look for the bells to ring over. I think they are saying the bell number rather than the place number to themselves, so of course they cannot think of 2 numbers at once. No feedback seems to be given after each bad attempt at plain bob or ask why they plain hunt up to the back ok but totally fail to make the 3/4 down dodge. Surely teachers need to find out why their learners are failing and try to work out how to help them? In this learners case I would make them count thier place out loud while ringing, with someone behind them counting as well, and pointing out the bell they have to follow, without saying the number of the bell.

One of the old bells at St Ives, Hunts - by Henry Penn 1723 said " When backward rung we tell of fire, think how the world shall thus expire

There are also residential courses you can go on. Too late for this year but there is one in Essex. Local associations will often sponsor young ringers to go on them

As peal secretary, every year in my report I ask if anyone wants to ring their first peal or first in method to get in touch with me. I have had about one person take me up on the offer. I also ask on Facebook and on the District email lists. In this year's report I have highlighted the lack of new peal ringers, peals in basic methods and also the shortage of organisers. One person (me) organised almost half of the association peals last year.
So ask your association peal secretary or association ringing master. That should be part of their job.
Sue Marsden

" I have had some several hit and miss attempts when I have rung this (often ending with me being shouted at!). my main issues are not being to count my place (something I have already struggled with anyway) "
Several points here. The first on is your struggle to count your places. You say you can ring Plain bob and grandsire ok - is this on the treble or inside? If on the treble, it's quite easy to plain hunt over all the bells slowly, then do the same quickly and lead, without really counting which place you are in. You will certainly need to be able to count which place you are in if you are ringing inside. Do you know why you are struggling with this? Are you thinking of the number of the bell you are following or trying to memorise the order? It's difficult to remember 2 numbers at once, so try not to think of the number of the bell you are following. If my learners are struggling to count where they are, I get them to count out loud. If they then find it hard to see which bell to follow, I will point it out, but NOT say the number as this can make them lose count. Also, don't count which place you are in too soon, as this can lead you to count the next place too early. Count as your bell strikes ie nearly at the ends of the pull, or if you do count as soon as you pull off, then make it slow - ie seconds said really slowly so it lasts until almost the start of the next pull (this is hard to explain). Practice counting when standing behind someone. or on your own going up and down stairs.

The advice Rosaling gives above is good, about ringing the treble to plain minor first to help with ropesight. Watch people's arms and try to find the one whose arms are closest to matching where yours are. I don't watch ropes- I watch the position of hands and arms.

Someone also said about treble bob on 4- this is also good. I would also start by doing Treble Bob Hunt on 4 and then 6 as the bells come in the same order as plain hunt which will help with the ropesight.

If you have not rung Plain Bob inside yet, you will also need to work out how the dodges work. A dodge is a change of direction for ONE BLOW ONLY. So in teble bob, ignore for a moment the dodge on the front as that starts half way through the dodges. So you plain hunt to 4ths place, which is at handstroke, so the dodge is a quick blow at backstroke. If you can't see who to ring after, just ring a bit quicker for ONE blow. This is your 3/4 UP dodge - because you are going UP to the back. Then hold up for 3 blows -4ths, 5ths 6ths -another handstroke. You can now dodge 5/6 UP, so another quick blow for 1 backstroke. If we are treble bobbing on 6, then you do your 2 blows in 6th place before starting you DOWN dodges. So it's a quick blow at hand, before holding UP and back for the dodge into 6ths place. Now you can start to hunt down to 3/4. So it's quickly to 5ths, 4ths and 3rds - which is the handstroke. Then hold up to take a step back to 4ths. Try and think of the dodge as ONE blow only as a change of direction on the backstroke. Good bell control is vital - you cannot move the bell about frequently without it, so it can be useful to ring on your own with someone else counting the places, and you change direction when needed. So you ring slowly as they count 2nds, 3rds, 4ths then as they count 3rds you ring quicker. Or you can count out loud as well. No ropesite needed!

Finally, about being shouted at. This is difficult, because it is sometimes hard to correct someone without raising your voice. It needs to be done quickly or the touch will disintegrate (it's easy in TB to go the wrong way or get at the wrong stroke), so can often sound abrupt which is not usually the intention. They often need to speak loudly to be heard -especially if you are looking the wrong way, as is sometimes the case. It is best to have someone behind you to correct as needed and make sure they tell all the ringers to try to keep quiet if you go wrong and leave it to the stander. Unless they are abusive it is not usually done with malice, especially if they know you are learning. I have hardly ever (can't really remember an occasion) when a learner is shouted at maliciously, though it can happen. It's usually reserved for an experienced ringer who should know better.

Also, with the ELY, no money from subs stays in the branch. And money the branches have Congress from money they raise themselves - raffles, profits from refreshments etc. Expenses are paid centrally, and very few grants are paid, despite saying money is available for small things like stays, so at the end of the year we end up transferring money to the central bell fund

Some associations as a whole are charities, such as the Peterborough DG, so all our subs can be gift aided. A few years ago it was I think easier to set this up than now. Quite a while back a number of people wanted to do the same for the Ely, but it never happened.

"I'd be surprised if Drew would allow access for non-peal-ringers"

If you email him, he will give you access even if you have not rung a peal. You might be researching peals at your tower or by your association, or past ringers from your tower

I remember this. I think it was from a book of short stories on Christmas, but I can't recall the title, date, publisher etc.

"I think it's unlikely that anyone takes up ringing with the aim of becoming a poor ringer and resolutely staying that way, yet the consensus seems to be that's a significant problem. Why is that happening? I'm sure there's neither a simple answer or a simple solution, but clearly it's something that needs fixing, and urgently."

I'm sure they don't, and I don't mind if they are only happy ringing call changes or plain hunt, but I quite often hear words to the effect of- I come here to enjoy myself and don't want to be always told to keep my backstrokes in. This happened with one of our Sunday Service ringers. She just could not seem to hear that she was constantly, always, (practically) late and that it spoilt the whole ringing as either the bell after her had to hold up so we got slower and slower (not good on a 26cwt8), or smash into her which sounded dreadful. This type of ringers seems not to appreciate that it is a public performance and should be the best we can do, and if someone neets telling to adjust the speed at which they are ringing, that is what happens. It's nothing personal but if they cannot hear for themselves and correct it, they will be told. If someone sang the wrong note in a choir or constantly sang flat they would soon get told, and I'm sure the choirmaster wouldn't tolerate the I'monlyheretohavefun attitude

"I fully believe that nobody tries to directly humiliate ringers at branch practices but it's not about how you or other branch committee members see things from your side, it's about how less experienced ringers see if from theirs. I can assure you that many ringers in the lower ranks don't participate at branch practices because they find them very intimidating, even if that isn't the intention. "Hearing better ringing" can be a huge demotivator if it appears to be unachievable "

Strangely, I can actually remember my first District meetings when I was a very basic, plain hunt ringer. I didn't find it the least intimidating. I was becoming aware of different standards of ringing and ringers and realized that ringing at such events was a way to improve. Did I think it was unachievable? I don't know, but I knew I had to try, and if I didn't mix with better ringers I had no chance of doing so. I remember hearing my first course of surprise major and my one thought was "wow, this is amazing" and wanting to be able to do it too.

The long term ringers in my district are desperately trying to give up office in favour of the newer recruits, with very limited success.
— Sue Marsden

John de Overa
"What have they done about that? Have they actually considered why newer recruits aren't interested, rather than just bemoaning that they aren't?"

Slightly unfair. We haven't just sat around moaning, but have tried encouraging newer ringers to join the committee. A few have, but not many. There aren't that many newer ringers anyway. Most of the slightly younger ones are busy with work/family. It's not that we haven't tried; also asking what things they want.

"If I turn up at a district practice I have no idea who will be there, how many people there will be there or what level they be ringing at."
and their experience of the "outside" at events such as branch practices had been humiliating and demotivating,"

We generally know exactly who will turn up - usually the committee members plus a few other long time ringers, plus a few newer recruits who are welcomed kindly, certainly not shouted at or humilated, but asked what they would like to ring and not forced out of their comford zone of they don't want to, and they seem happy with what they have rung. I have never actually witnessed learners being humiliated at meetings. We have tried changing the time of practices, and having a particular focus- such as Bob Doubles, or whatever. Learners also get the chance to ring with good bands -and also hear more advanced ringing. You might think this is 'humiliating' but I think that it is good for less experienced ringers to hear better ringing so they know what they can aim for -if they want to.

""No, many towers and ringers have been led to believe that they aren't capable of progressing any further either collectively or individually, "
Again this is not the case round here. If people want to progress or improve (the two are not the same) then they are given the opportunity to do so. But a number of ringers at some towers make it quite clear that they are only interested in ringing at their own tower and are happy with the level they are at. And that's fine- they are maintaining ringing at a tower which is the whole point after all.

"Because posts in societies are dominated by long term ringers, there is also a fixation on peals, striking competitions and business meetings, which appeal to a minority."
— Roger Booth
The long term ringers in my district are desperately trying to give up office in favour of the newer recruits, with very limited success. There is certainly no fixation on peals - it would be hard to get a district band for a peal. The number of active peal ringers (ie ring more than 2 in a year) in the district is fewer than 4. Business meetings are 2 a year and are brief. We may or may not have a striking competition. District practices are aimed at learners and improvers so they can get to ring things they cannot in their own tower, but attendance is still low. Many ringers are only interested in ringing at their own towers and do not want to progress, let alone improve. However the training sessions at the Teaching centre using the simulator seem popular.

As a Children's librarian, I have never come across one. The best young book on ringing I have come across is Milly by Pippa Goodhart https://www.amazon.co.uk/Milly-Story-Book-Pippa-Goodhart/dp/0340672730/ref=sr_1_1?crid=15KHZAHKRY2C&keywords=milly+goodhart&qid=1664016237&sprefix=milly+goodhart%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-1 aimed at 6+ but could be read aloud to younger children. Pippa was a ringer as a teenager and rang 1 peal, maybe 2, in the Cambridge area, so got everything pretty much correct in this book. She might be persuaded to write one for under 5's.

All Association records should be kept permanently, including the attendance book as this provides a record of how many attended meetings. I can't think there is any data protection issue with this.
Association records in general are often very badly looked after and can be difficult to trace. Sometimes they are deposited in the local records office, but access can be difficult. The ideal solution would be digitisation, but still keep the paper copy. I have also discovered how bad the minute recording is. There is mostly very little of any discussion recorded.

Have just had a Facebook 'discussion' with 2 non peal ringers. late learners, who just don't understand a) why we object to paying 'just' a £ when we pay £5 to towers and b) why it is important to some of us to ring peals for our home association. They think that if we chose to ring peals then we should just accept the peal fee, regardless of the fact that a small number of ringers are paying a disproportionately higher amount than others. Income from peal fees can go down as well as up if ringers chose to ring them for other associations with no peal fee or no association at all.

When I studied Economics I think we were taught that taxation should be 'fair'. A small number of ringers contribute a far higher proportion to the Association funds than others. Also, a number of those ringers paying the peal fee will not be resident in that association. Is if fair for them to contribute, when they will also be contributing to their own guild?

That all sounds horribly familiar

Did you have a peal fee when there was still a written report? For how long has there been no written report? Are the peals available in whatever online report you have?