Ringing Forums

I think this is a common issue, strategy looks for the gaps which need filling or the areas of weakness to address but that can leave the ‘successful’ demographic feeling left out or unwanted. Ringing 2030 talks a lot about how to attract young ringers, to learn and to stay with ringing for the long term because there are not many young ringers learning and staying at the moment. The success with adult learners, and especially adults coming to ringing with more time available in the second half of their life, means there is no strategy needed for recruitment here.
However, any strategy for supporting ongoing development should apply to all recent learners, gaining experience, wanting to ring more complex methods or to strike better (or to ring at more towers, etc) as age is not a defining factor then.
I do see situations where younger learners are given more opportunities, more advice and find there are more expectations for them to keep developing at pace, to understand new jargon quickly and be ready to keep moving on. But I do also see older ringers who do their homework and show serious interest being given similar opportunities, advice and a push towards their development. So, as with most things, it probably depends who you ring with and how you demonstrate and explain that you want to keep progressing your ringing but a little like the women in ringing focus you may need to be firmer that you do want to progress to avoid being pigeonholed as a happy, community minded ringer who will cover very well for the rest of their ringing career.
The general concept of being open minded about why people want to ring and how people want to develop (or not) could well be a Ringing 2030 theme as ringers can be put off by any external expectations, pushing them forward or holding them back, when it’s based on assumptions rather than individual wants and needs.

All I said was that it takes longer, which it does. I am currently teaching people across approximately a 55 year age range, creating opportunities for all of them and spending a very great amount of time doing it. There are challenges at both ends of the scale and they are different. At the moment I have five learners at my home tower all of whom are in their 50s and 60s (I need to be careful) and they have just started method ringing with great enthusiasm. Will they get to Cambridge? I don't know - some of them would certainly hope so. On the other hand, the young Brumdingers rang a course of cambridge minor last week with two 10 year olds in the band. The older learners are coming ringing four times a week and are highly valued. The younger ones' commitment is varied and they are no less valuable.

Thanks for your reply Simon. Sounds like both you, and they are working hard for them to do well. I hope they achieve the level of ringing they want to and that they do not feel limited by their age or any other factors.

you make some good points.

any strategy for supporting ongoing development should apply to all recent learners, gaining experience, wanting to ring more complex methods or to strike better (or to ring at more towers, etc) as age is not a defining factor then.

Agreed it should be a level playing field. And whilst in some places I'm sure it is, the truth is that the expectations of older learners are always lower, and that is inevitably reflected in the opportunities that are made available to them.

a little like the women in ringing focus you may need to be firmer that you do want to progress to avoid being pigeonholed as a happy, community minded ringer who will cover very well for the rest of their ringing career. — Lucy Chandhial

It's now widely and rightly considered that the issues that women face need to be addressed, and indeed that's happening. I've seen no recognition that ageism is also an issue.

The general concept of being open minded about why people want to ring and how people want to develop (or not) could well be a Ringing 2030 theme as ringers can be put off by any external expectations, pushing them forward or holding them back, when it’s based on assumptions rather than individual wants and needs. — Lucy Chandhial

I completely agree, but I see no sign of it. I think the concentration on recruitment as the top priority is a mistake, there's no point recruiting people if the infrastructure needed for them to reach their full potential isn't there, which in most places it isn't. Relatively speaking, it's easy to recruit, retaining and maximising the potential of recruits is much harder.

We met an adult ringer from a tower about 30 mins away from us at a branch meeting yesterday. He's been ringing for longer than I have and for the last 5 years, he's been trying to master PB6. Not only that, but he believes that once he has, he'll have cracked method ringing.

Firstly, nobody should be left struggling for that long, it's a good illustration of just how poor method teaching is in some places.

Secondly, there's no way a youngster would still be around, they'd have given up ages ago whereas adults are much more likely to stick at it. That reinforces the orthodoxy that youngsters are always "better" than adults. Some are, some aren't, it's not as clear cut as is generally claimed.

All I said was that it takes longer, which it does. — Simon Linford

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, I don't think sweeping generalisations help. I also think that progress isn't linear - some people can pick up the bell control stage very quickly and then top out soon after, others take longer to at the start but then pick up the pace later on.

We have an 11 year old who controls the bell beautifully, he's just starting to ring rounds. He started last May and if he sticks at it I'm sure will be an excellent ringer. We have a 62 year old who started in November and has almost caught up with him. Who knows how far each of them will go, I certainly don't. And why does it matter anyway, they are both assets to ringing and both deserve the opportunities they need to reach their full potential.

Will they get to Cambridge? I don't know - some of them would certainly hope so. On the other hand, the young Brumdingers rang a course of cambridge minor last week with two 10 year olds in the band. — Simon Linford

As a Minor-only ringer, after being berated for not being "Up to ringing on 8", 3 weeks later I rang Cambridge Major at a branch practice, because I had the prerequisites (and mysteriously, the sudden motivation) to do so. So what? The plural of "anecdote" is not "proof", either way.

I have been thinking for a while that something more like 3 ringers per bell is what you need to have a long term viable and self-sustaining band. One, it takes the pressure off ringers to absolutely be there every Sunday or no ringing will occur. With that pressure off, it is easier to welcome ringers who have young children/work shifts/ etc, rather than having them self-select to quit.
Also it gives you some contingency for when or if you lose a lot in one period of time.

I think it could make for a challenging practice night, in the category of good problems to have — Tina

What I'd add is that this number of ringers allows for a bit more specialisation of practices - perhaps ones for foundation skills, one for going into methods, etc. Getting people into methods in general practices dominated by learners is challenging, so changing the structure to give everyone a bit more of what they want would be beneficial.

As for recruitment, my band will take in any competent ringers we can lay our hands on. For learners, we generally try and avoid more than 2 learners to 1 handling instructor as we don't have the resources to offer instruction outside of the practice nights. If you can fit in additional practices for learners, you could probably extend that to four per instructor as long as there are enough existing ringers to be able to put together a solid band on six.

We would not turn away anyone who actively seeks us out as that keenness amongst university students is unusual and indicates a level of self-motivation which could make them good learners. We would however reconsider any plans for active recruitment. If we were well and truly overwhelmed by people wanting to learn, we would look to other towers in the area (perks of ringing in a city). But we would never allow a level of learners which prevented them from learning or prevented the existing band from progressing.

we generally try and avoid more than 2 learners to 1 handling instructor as we don't have the resources to offer instruction outside of the practice nights. — Tristan Lockheart

We do handling instruction separate from practice night in one to one sessions and in practice it would be difficult to manage more than one or two at a time.
However in the late 70s we took groups of 6 or 7 at a time, with one of us teaching thesm in the same session. I don't know how we managed it but we got amazing success rates. From memory of the first group, 6 started, 5 became regular ringers and 4 of them rang Surprise Major.

We have an 11 year old who controls the bell beautifully, he's just starting to ring rounds. He started last May and if he sticks at it I'm sure will be an excellent ringer. We have a 62 year old who started in November and has almost caught up with him. — John de Overa

John, I do hope this comparison isn't suggesting that 62 is old! I'll take your example as illustrating that it's not. :-)

I do hope this comparison isn't suggesting that 62 is old! — Nigel Goodship

I hope not, otherwise I am :lol:

But it seems to be commonly regarded as "too old" in the ringing world...

I do hope this comparison isn't suggesting that 62 is old!
— Nigel Goodship

I hope not, otherwise I am :lol:

But it seems to be commonly regarded as "too old" in the ringing world... — John de Overa

It’s odd to me that when I was young, it was all about experience, now that I’m old, it’s all about potential :smile:

@Alan C
I was trying to give you a smiley or similar in agreement, but I may have flagged your post as problematic. It's not a problem, I am! Is there anyone I should contact to reverse the flag?

I have approved the post :smile: These forums have the ability to like posts, but a decision was made to turn the feature off. I think is useful - better than having to post just to say I agree.

I'm sure the mods will understand :smile:

When I was young age wasn't an issue. We were encouraged as youngsters and older ringers were respected for their experience. But that was at a time when the Exercise had a younger profile and was growing.
Things are different now, we have a much older age profile, numbers are falling and there are societal barriers to youth recruitment. We need to think about age. So why do we keep making it into a divisive issue?
It's a fact that on average some things slow down with age. But individuals vary a lot, and in many cases more than the 'average' effect. There's nothing special about any particular age, 62, 32, 82, or whatever, they are in a continuum, with a lot of variation at each one.
It's a fact that the age profile of ringers has become skewed to the point of probably being unsustainable so we ought to correct that with more young recruits 'on average'. But that doesn't mean that a promising ringer of any age shouldn't be recruited, taught, encouraged and developed.
The example quoted earlier proves the point, with an older person making faster progress than a younger one. And I once taught a 50 year old who took half the time that her son did to get to the same stage.
It's also true that a lifelong ringer who starts earlier will ring for more years than one who starts later. But sadly a lot of ringers don't become lifelong ringers, so at what ever age we recruit we should be trying to attract and encourage those who will become enthusiastic and committed.

I completely agree with all of that, if there was a "like" button, I'd have clicked it :wink:

The age range at our tower is 11 to 80, I used to participate in a different sort of group activity where the age range was also that wide. One of the big benefits was it gave young people the chance to form relationships with adults on their own terms and as peers, away from the usual parent or teacher ones. Over time you could see the youngster's interpersonal skills and confidence grow, and the wrinklies loved it as well. It was common to see a group with an age span of many decades "hanging out" together, eating lunch and generally shooting the breeze. There aren't many activities that can do that, I think ringing is one of them and we should recognise and promote that.

and I fully agree with this! One of things I liked about learning to ring as a young teenager was being treated as an equal with adults rather than the usual clear teacher, student relationship and I still think that having regular contact with a wide range of age groups, through bellringing is enjoyable and good for everyone.

NEW RINGERS FOR OLD!
Like most towers, we welcome new recruits of any age but there are drawbacks to taking on both younger and older woud-be ringers. Young teenagers tend to develop their skills more quickly, especially as they transition from rounds & cc to change ringing. On the down side, they tend to discover the opposite sex and/or leave the area for college or university. Older recruits are usually settled in the area and in their lifestyles but tend progress a little slower. Our most recent intake were people in their 50s - almost ideal!
As regards recruiting, we run two events most years. On a Sunday afternoon in the summer we often have a Tower Open Day. Visitors can visit the tower, climb up to see the bells (we have easy access), visit the clock room and even go onto the flat roof of the tower to take photos of the townscape. There is no attempt to recruit but those who wish may have a few pulls on a silenced bell. A short Powerpoint presentation loops round continuously, projected onto the white wall. For the avoidance of doubt (!) we have ringers stationed as stewards at every level in the tower to supervise and assist the visitors.

We follow this up in September with an Open Night for people who are interested in finding out more. This is always on our regular practrice night (we don't want recruits who 'can't come on Mondays') and is our 'serious' recruiting effort with trial pulls and demonstrations of rounds, call changes and method ringing.