Ringing Forums

Hi Oliver,
Just a small point: this forum is national (possibly international), so asking about "some towers or people (within reasonable distance)" without saying where you are won't get any help.
Regards,
Martin

hi martin, yes that's a very good point, I live in harlow essex but I regularly ring at sawbridgeworth, much hadham, bishop's stortford and waltham abbey (which is on paper my home tower).

I think you have three ways you can approach this, and all will mean talking to local people to see what can be arranged.
1 - check what district practices exist with a focus on method ringing at different stages to see which of these you can go along to (and request the practices you need from the district ringing master if they are not currently planned)
2 - find out which towers regularly ring the methods you are interested in at their weekly practice to see if you could join their practices in future
3 - set up focused practice sessions or quarter peal attempts for the specific methods you are interested in, with support from experienced ringers

All of these will be more or less possible depending on the ringers in your local area and how far you can travel but you are probably not the only one with a similar experience in your area if the influx of learners means there is limited time for method ringing.
Being on the geographical boundary of Essex, Herts and Middlesex probably doesn’t help as many practices will be designed to be central to the district so you might find organising something specific is the best answer and you need to find other ringers in your area at a similar stage. The tower captains where you ring, the district ringing masters and training officers are all likely to be able to help with this.

Being on the geographical boundary of Essex, Herts and Middlesex probably doesn’t help — Lucy Chandhial

My reaction was the opposite. It means you can fish in three adjacent ponds. When I was learning I benefitted from being in an overlap between two societies, which meant twice as many 'local' practices a month.

There are also residential courses you can go on. Too late for this year but there is one in Essex. Local associations will often sponsor young ringers to go on them

Residential courses? I wish I'd have known that when I was younger and fitter.

I’ve had the same…
I enjoy the teaching side, but I do find myself saying the same thing every week. My local band had been doing plain hunt for a year and really isn’t making progress. It’s the same errors every week.., partly due to a lack of practise at it but also too many learners ringing at once.
The way the learning is happening is holding people back.

But in general I to other towers for learning methods, it takes some finding but I go to Manchester cathedral too.

Perhaps a coordination page is needed where towers can say where they’re upto and help they need. I know the basics are on Dove but it needs to be more frequent and detailed

Residential courses are a good idea, but you’d still need to practise and retain the knowledge.
But do help to get you over the initial hurdle

The way the learning is happening is holding people back. — Martyn Bristow

I think you are completely right.

Currently, most teaching is usually done by the small percentage of people with high natural aptitude and who learned so long ago they can't remember learning. As such, teaching is geared to people who are the same, so learners are asked to jump straight from PH by-the-numbers to PB, and to simultaneously pick up ropesight, ringing by place, remembering a method and dodging. That still works for the small percentage who could always learn that way, but it does not work for people who have the potential to ring at a more advanced level, but who can't get there in one huge bound. It's not as if there aren't lots of resources out there for a more gradual approach, but many ringers are very resistant to change. If we want to increase the numbers of people ringing at a good standard we need to make continued progress more accessible rather than just recruiting more people who don't get much beyond PH.

The other side of the coin is the learners themselves. For some of them, no matter how much it's explained that you can't ring methods using a fixed sequence of bell numbers, they simply won't put in the effort to learn to ring by place. Even if they've claimed to have learned a methods, it is by bell number. Yet there's still "When we ring our first QP..." The blunt truth is that they won't, ever. Trying to push those learners beyond by-bell-number is pointless, and intensely frustrating experience for teachers. Better to accept they've decided to limit their progress and work on improving their skills at that level.

Trying to push those learners beyond by-bell-number is pointless, and intensely frustrating experience for teachers. Better to accept they've decided to limit their progress and work on improving their skills at that level. — John de Overa

I completely agree John. But to add to your last sentence, they should work on their skills and striking at that level. Unfortunately, to my first hand knowledge, many ringers have little idea about what good striking is!

Yes quite
Our striking is awful, because people are waiting for a given rope to have pulled off… I keep telling people just pull, don’t stop but they’re fixated on the rope

The other issue I see is people fixating on their rope and missing their place. They’re out EVERY hand stroke because they don’t put their backstroke in place …

I find this is because teaching gets rushed to make progress not good progress

I find this is because teaching gets rushed to make progress not good progress — Martyn Bristow

Correct! I fear that this is a different thread and will go off topic!

hardly surprising that people fixate in a rope and blindly follow it, they are only doing what they were told to do as soon as they rang with other people. And hardly surprising that as soon as one person is out of place there's instant carnage as the rest of them blindly follow the rope in front. Whilst individual striking skills are clearly important, it's something that needs the whole band working together on.

I know this thread has strayed from the original question (about which I sympathise greatly) but this fixation on needing to develop method ringing at all cost is something I have been trying to get away from. We started thinking about it in Birmingham when we had learners who stopped the Learning the Ropes scheme once they rung call changes, tenor behind etc, but then were not going to progress any further. We didn't want them to think they had failed, because they hadn't. If we had created a happy ringer who could strike rounds and call changes well then that was a perfectly good outcome.

I think about one band who we taught who, had we taken them down a route of ringing call changes like they do in the South West, they would be really enjoying it and doing it well, but they all moved on to ring Bob Doubles and Grandsire which given they all do it with each other is a less than satisfactory experience. I think we did them a disservice.

I have developed a mild obsession for Devon call change ringing, but I keep going to practices and thinking how much better the ringing would be if the band was really focused on call changes and striking as you do when you master 60 on 3rds or similar. The focus on striking it gives you is really good and when you get it right it is as fulfilling as mastering any method.

I think you are mixing up several things. Devon ringers ring call changes well and many bands who see methods as the norm produce ringers who can't strike well. Correlation isn't causation. In method land lots of bands strike call changes badly, and bands that consistently strike well tend to be bands with a good method repertoire. That suggests the opposite correlation, and proves that what is being rung isn't the point, or at least not the main point.
Preceding comments were about rope following, holding up and ringing by numbers. That's far more significant. Look at how many people are taught to ring, introduced to collective ringing, and given advice while ringing. It is dominated by rope following and not by the need to developm rhythmic bell control and listening skills. Is it any surprise that so many ringers develop non rhythmic, non hearing, vision dominated habits, and only a few manage to pick up the essential core skills despite how they are taught.
I would say the culture in a crack method band is much closer the the culture in a crack call change band, a focus on striking as the objective and developing the skills needed to achieve it, than it is to many bands and ringers in method land. To change the result we need to change the culture, but that is hard because new ringers are infected by the existing culture of the bands they join.

I agree that a band of happy and skilful CC ringers is preferable to a struggling band trying to unsuccessfully ring methods, but the culture in most of the country is that method ringing should be the ultimate goal - just look at the ART syllabus, for example. However for both forms you need to be able to strike well which means listening, not just looking. What you ring and how you ring it are related but separate issues.

I agree with every word, and I think it's difficult to overemphasise just how much ringing, at my level at least, is vision dominated. I recollect a long-standing ringer correctly identifying the cause of a PH fire-up, but when asked why they didn't just ring in the right place anyway the reply was "Because if I did, it would all go wrong" :gasp: That's completely wrong but it's unreasonable to blame people for that, or for the poor striking it leads to, because that's what they've been taught from the very start.

The traditional path from CCs to method ringing is that you "just" learn PH, then PB and hey presto, you are a method ringer. The truth is that if you've been taught the traditional way, you have to pretty much start over to learn to ring methods. When I grasped the scale of the challenge I very nearly gave up ringing, and it took around 9 months before I made any externally visible progress as I had to relearn how to ring. I know some ringers breeze through, but many don't and either drop out, or get stuck. Most teaching ignores the difficulty of the transition, and as a learner you have to a) realise it's required b) want to do it enough to put the effort in. As a result of that not happening, towers are full of people who believe they will become method ringers by just doing more of what they've already been taught.

I think we need to be up-front about the challenges of becoming a method ringer, rather than trying to push people on beyond the limits of their interest and/or abilities. If someone insists on trying to ring methods by bell number then I think we need to be truthful and tell them that they are wasting their time, and that they should concentrate on improving their skills at the level they are happy at.

Up in the wilds of the Yorkshire Dales, local towers have pooled their knowledge and experience and congregate at one of the towers on the first Friday of each month. This provides an opportunity to ring with others, ring less familar bells and to hear other tutors' explanations. Often, in the latter case, simply hearing an explanation in a different form of words from a different person can bring enlightenment.

Once you have found (or set up) a practice which includes your target methods, you may find it helpful to put in a lot of homework before each session. Have you tried:
- writing out the blue line of the plain course, starting with any bell.
- use android apps like blueline or methodology to "write" out the blue line and get an error count as you go.
- Use Abel (windows) to "ring" plain touches, touches and quarter peals. If you use the "moving ringers" option, it may help you to strengthen your rope sight, and enables you to do things that are impossible to do in the real world, like slowing right down to ring a difficult phrase, and repeatedly ringing the same phrase until you get it right. Abel will give you a score and you should be able to judge whether or not you are are ready to catch hold in the real world and try something.
Obviously Abel doesn't help with bell handling, but it does help with listening skills, and checking you really do know a blue line.

If you can find a tower with a simulator, that is willing for you and your father to go there together and practise on your own, you can learn methods that way. You just set Abel (or whatever program you are running) to Cambridge (or whatever) and off you go. You can ring it solidly for an hour if that is what it takes.
I would never have progressed in method ringing had I not been able to do this.
If you are really keen you can install your own mini-ring in your house. Seriously!

added to that I would add - look at the structure of your chosen method, how different parts fit together, and where the landmarks are, like meeting the Treble and you course bells.
That will all help you recover when you wobble r drop off the line.
It may also help you to respond to advice from others trying to put you right. Mobel (and I assume other programs that can show you a method) you can choose between shoeing the line, showing the grid and 'diary' format (all the numbers which clutter the picture but can sometimes help working out who you meet where).
To switch between them with Mobel just double tap the display.

In response to part of your original question, we have been grappling with this at Glasgow for quite a while, due to a large number of learners. They are all very welcome and have enhanced the band, but we have been aware that progress (which isn't just about method ringing) for more intermediate and advanced ringers was stalling. For example, we were finding it hard to bring ringers on to 10-bell ringing of any sort.

What we are experimenting with now is to designate one practice a month for a 10-bell practice (and in the same week have a separate 6-bell practice. I wonder if it would be worth thinking about dividing your practice just a little bit to help you and the other ringers in the same situation. The more confident you are, the better framework you can create for your learners as well.

Going back to the original question, have you ever played in an orchestra or a brass band, or sung in a choir.? If so, you will realise that what you are able to play or sing is dependent on the least able members of the group. Joining another orchestra, band or choir to play or sing more advanced music may work for you, but unless you stay to help the others, you will be letting them down. Despite having invested a lot of their time in teaching you, they will be stuck or go backwards.

The same is true in ringing. It’s a team activity, not an individual one, and we need to teach smarter.

Rather than the old way, we need to focus on teaching core skills such as advanced bell control and the three speeds of ringing, listening skills and understanding the concept of place in a row, right from the outset. Otherwise, it takes far longer to acquire these skills if people become accustomed to not needing them, or once bad habits become ingrained.

We too have a lot of new ringers, and we have found the techniques in the ART Module 2F syllabus invaluable. Rather than ring endless call-changes and plain hunt by numbers, we have used exercises such as whole pull and stand, setting after a number of strokes (decided by throwing a large furry dice) kaleidoscope places and dodges, Mexican wave, ringing twinkle twinkle little star, switching from rounds to backward rounds and back again, moving people round the circle to ring different bells, ringing facing out of the circle and teaching people how to call call-call changes. We have found these exercises invaluable.

We use a previously silent neighbouring tower for our Monday evening beginners practices, which are very popular. Everyone enjoys themselves and there is a good team spirit. We’ve even needed to discourage some of our experienced ringers from coming along to help, as you don’t need very many experienced ringers to run these sessions. This gives the new ringers far more rope time, which is what they need, and it retains their interest.

This also has the benefit of relieving the experienced ringers of the tedium of endless call changes and plain hunt. Having mastered the key skills at the beginners practices, the new ringers are also now able to join in the Friday night practices and make far more rapid progress than they would if they had followed the few minutes of call-changes and plain hunt by numbers each week pathway.