Ringing Forums

Thanks for your comments, with which I entirely agree. You have highlighted how complex a subject it is with the various interlinking elements.
The number of learners in our tower over the last 4 years has not made any appreciable difference to our fund (but we have discussed the implications). To me that’s not the point. It’s to do with quality of teaching and quality teachers. I have found that asking for a donation has been beneficial. It focusses the mind on quality, and financial benefits for the tower. It gives us a more ‘professional’ attitude and awareness of our responsibilities (key word), which is good for ringing in the longer term. Charging or asking for a donation, incentivises the product offering.
IMO there could never be a national model. Ringing is, on the whole, a disorganised melee of peripatetic ringers, loosely affiliated to towers and with freedom to come and go as they wish. Long may it remain so, but we do need to include a different model which is not always FOC, so that we can try to compete with other activities and which might encourage the general public to take ringing a little more seriously!

The challenge is how to get there starting from the current situation where everything is free and we are all volunteers — Nick Elks

I completely agree with your comments Nick. We all have to be brave about this. I recently helped two ringers (leaders in their own tower but with little teaching experience). I wanted to review their ringing style with them and identify ways they could help their learners. I arranged 5 weekly sessions and charged them (into the bell fund). I made lesson plans and reviews etc.They were happy with the arrangement. I don't hold with this 'volunteer' attitude that lots of ringers have. I think you probably don't either. I'm very honest about this - I ring because I love ringing. Just because I ring for nothing doesn't mean that I am volunteering! I'm not a volunteer - I'm a ringer! As you say, we are in this mindset which implies that everything is free. Ringing must be the cheapest thing to do, where else can you go and use 80 - 100k worth of equipment for nothing? Its bonkers! I'm confident that if we took a realistic and sensible approach people wouldn't mind paying a nominal amount to be taught to ring but I don't know how we change the mindset of those in charge.

But if we limit ourselves to those who have both spare time and the inclination, as well as the relevant skills then we seriously limit the availableinstructor time. — John Harrison

Yes, and a lot of the curent resource with time and skill will have reached the end of its shelf life within the next 5 to 10 years!

I am very much in favour of people paying to be taught - is what to do with the money. — Nick Elks

Hello Nick, As you might have seen in my OP very early in this thread we charge to teach. But I don't take any of the money, it goes into the bell fund which supports running the tower, including provision of teaching materials.. This is made clear from the outset. Although I am a 'qualified' ART teacher and have many year's ringing and teaching experience I wouldn't feel happy about personal gain, modest though it would be. I am still happy to give my time and knowledge FOC but am tired of teaching for nothing when nothing comes from it. Charging a nominal amount focusses the mind and adds value to our offering.

Very little comment on this subject so far! We charge to teach. It adds value to our offering. We arrange a schedule up front for ten one-hour lessons. (in reality they are over an hour because by charging we have an obligation to give good value for money too in time and skill). It is a modest amount £6 (ten weeks in advance) and compares favourably with local pilates classes. Always prepare lesson plans and give feedback - it only takes a few minutes but involves the learner thereby adding to our committment to them. The aim is for the learner to achieve ART Level 1 by the tenth lesson. These lessons are 1:1 - not on practice night. Money goes into the tower fund. In return we expect committment from the ringer and we welcome them as part of our team from day 1 expecting them to attend practice nights from the start. They always get an opportuinty to ring, e.g. backstrokes to rounds. Every tower is different, so make your own decisions about how you manage this. Training centres charge to teach - towers should consider this too. We have the same facilities - simulator, cctv and ART accredited teachers. Good luck.

But I do also think there is a misconception that the CCCBR should make things happen which forgets that the CCCBR is a representation of ringers and that things happen when ringers make them happen. — Lucy Chandhial

I completely agree with this. Last December I ran a seminar about planning for the future. The intention was to help ringers think about how their towers will be managed going forward and what they had to do to ensure that ringing will continue. I referenced CCCBR Ringing 2030 but said from the outset that CCCBR won't do this for us, it has to happen at grass roots level, saying to towers "You have to make things happen". The seminar did set some pople thinking and I received some positive feedback.
As far as my own tower is concerened, we are training up other members of the tower to be ringing masters, we are involving a third party (friend but not a ringer) in tower maintenance, we have a handbook which sets out governence of the tower and we have the usual risk assessments and safeguarding processes in place.
We are a six bell tower, with a modest repertoire, ringing CCs Plain Bob and Grandsire 5. We have 9 enthusiastic ringers. We run a tied bell practice every week using simulated sound, as well as our practice night. I run ad hoc training sessions for teaching bell handling (ART) and ringing the sim. These are for any ringers in the area. The CCCBR hasn't done any of this for us, I wouldn't expect it to - it is our initiative.
I am trying to build a culture of being pro-active so that when I stop ringing others are able to continue, knowing how ringing works (important), and to the high standards we are aspiring to.

Its all in the quality of teaching, and ownership. I think that all learners should have a mentor who can help guide the ringer on to the next stage. I encourage my ringers to visit other towers but continue to mentor and advise them.
Example: our 9 yr old visited a tower last week off his own back (with parents) and struggled with the treble. He was told that the bell was too light for him. When he reported this to me I immediately told him that the bell was not too light, he was not ringing it correctly. I then explained the technique for ringing light bells, which he took on board.
The person who told him this was incorrect, and this type of comment doesn't help learners. Instead it encourages them to be shy of light bells (in this case) whereas in this case he should have been told by the person in charge how to manage the bell. Hence the need for learners to have hands on mentors to continue to help. But we can't be with them all the time, so we rely on other teachers being up to the task!
Another thing I find from teachers/tower captains is the habit of allowing a ringer to try the bell. Answer - No! You are going to ring it anyay and the first time you ring it will be in Rounds. This is another example where teachers are not confident enough to teach their learners to have confidence.

But it is something I came acros often - learner struggles with something and no attempt is made to find out WHAT they are finding difficukt or WHY they are going wrong. — Sue Marsden

I am fortunate to be retired. Therefore I have time to give extra practises to my ringers. The issue in the case cited seems to be that the learner hasn't been taught how to dodge, or, more importantly, the difference between an up and a down dodge. This is one of the elements which I teach during our extra practices, and is more easily done at 'tied bell' practices because continuous practice can be done, and often in a group environment with other similarly experienced learners. It is the teacher's responsibility to make sure that the learner understands the various elements of ringing. Same as a school teacher needs to make sure they get the message across! Feedback is always important. Are we taking too much for granted? Are our expectations for some of our learners too high? Are our expectations for some our teachers too high? (Teachers of ringing are not necessarilly "teachers")

State pension age is now 68, yet according to many in the ringing world, anyone over 45-50 is considered to be senile and incapable. it's a ridiculous and insulting attitude and says more about the attitudes of the increasingly elderly ringing "elite" than it does about the abilities of people in that age range. Move on please, the 2000s happened nearly a quarter of a century ago. — John de Overa

I want the 30- 50 age range.That gives them at least a 30 year ringing career..I'll still teach beginners over that age and many have a valuble contribution to make, not only in ringing but steeple keeping etc
On a personal note, it is so exciting teaching youngsters. They have tenacity and just absorb everything you throw at them. They have no fear and don't over-think the problem. I count myself lucky to have had the opportunity to teach our 3.
We also hold a weekly daytime tied bell practice for bell control skills and it helps the normal practice hugely. We are lucky to have the facility in the tower to do this, both is the installation (sim included) and I'm retired, but so too are the participants! Its all good fun.

Deliberate Practice and Expert Performance — Simon Linford

We should aim for deliberate practice and expert performance every time we ring in our local towers. Many tower captains don't understand this. As a consequence we are often too lacksadaisical, and coupled with sometimes lack of inate ability we are left with a mediocre ringing attitude.
Great to read about the success of ARA, well done everyone.

Perhaps a bit off topic : Our tower, and many others have a particular problem. Two of our young lads, 9 and 11 have achieved their Level 1 and Level 3 certificates this summer. We can still teach them more at this and they certainly have the inate ability.. Our young lady, who is off to uni has just got her Level 1 after 9 weeks. Given the opportunity she will fly and has already taken herself off to GSM, St Benets and St Clements in Cambridge. She has made a bunch of new young ringing friends, and has arranged ringing in Brighton for herself.
She will ring with us at home between terms, but it is quite likely that we will have little to offer as we struggle with PB and G5. When the boys get older they too wil fly the nest, and good for them, I won't hold anyone back, in fact I actively encourage all our ringers to ring elsewhere to keep learning.
The problem for many local towers, no 30 - 50 year olds, and older people with limited capability hanging on. We need a younger ringing profile in local towers to be a stepping stone for good young ringers.

The one thing I’ve learned about teaching, is you can’t make it prescriptive. Everyone learns differently at different paces and ways. — Martyn Bristow

Agree, adapt to the learner. Another challenge is that people who teach ringing are often not natural teachers. If they teach from a flawed ringing style or little experience the learner is at a disadvantage. I think that observation is one of the most important attributes in a teacher. ART can't cover everything. For example, I teach all my ringers to look through the sally and not focus on it. This saves time and energy and is more efficient, but its not mentioned anywhere. Its also not difficult to do!

While, as you mention, learning the ropes covers this I’ve only been to a couple of towers that adopt the scheme — Martyn Bristow

Learnig the Ropes is a very good, structured scheme, but whatever system of teaching is used it is down to the teachers to promote advanced ringing (peals or quarter peals) and help train their ringers accordigly. One challenge that ringing faces is that many teachers have little experience in 'performance ringing' and therefore cannot promote it. Even ringing a quarter peal of Plain Bob Doubles is a relatively high standard of ringing in most towers!

Is this why there now seem to be more mistakes in peals than there should be / used to be? — Richard Pullin

When I was peal ringing I set myself a max number of trips to 5 per peal and was disappointed to get any, especially early on in a peal. This gave me self determination to maintain a high standard and not let other ringers down.

↪John de Overa
I didn't make an assumption, I made an assertion about what a branch ringing master 'should' be able to do, because he/she would know the capability of someone, and also of local opportunities.
If ringing in an area is in such poor health that the district RM could not play such a role then it seems unlikely that anyone would have advanced to the point of being ready for a peal. — John Harrison

In the main, district RMs don't take on that role. When I was taught my teacher was my mentor and arranged my first QPs and peals. He also guided me in what I should learn to build my skills in a logical way. As my mentor he also introduced me to some of the best ringers. I strongly believe that each learner should have a mentor to give structured guidance. This should not restrict a ringer from making their own decisions and I encourage mine to ring wherever they can, as well as being loyal to their own tower. Sadly, once a learner can ring CCs or PB they are often (but not always) abandoned and it's assumed that they know more than they do, and this can hinder their progress. New ringers know nothing - they need to be looked after!

QPs are much closer to the pre-COVID numbers. Perhaps 3+ hour stints of ringing have just gone out of fashion? — John de Overa

People aren't 'peal fit' any more. Peals require physical and mental fitness. I think its also a generational thing. I stopped ringing peals after covid - I lost interest. Although in my 70s I hope I'm still peal fit, but I just don't want to invest the time any more. If I am typical, a lot of peal ringers will have dropped out of the system for the same/similar reasons, thereby contributing to reducing opportunities for younger ringers. This is the whole thing about Ringing 2030 - thousands of us are going to permanently drop out of ringing, let alone peals within a few years! This is really frightening.

I do think it influences how we recruit because we do need to be respectful of the church as the owner of the bells. — Lucy Chandhial

I completely agree.

I know a few ringers (like me) who are not entirely comfortable with ‘calling people to service’ to a religion which can be criticised for its attitude to some people and topics within the community. — Lucy Chandhial

I ring for Sunday services because I enjoy ringing. I don't see it as calling people to church. The sound of church bells doesn't make any difference to the numbers attending. Agreed, sometimes when people hear them they are reminded that they need to get to church, if they are attendees. And, people in my village enjoy their sound. I don't see it as a religious act. I ring because I enjoy it. In return, I am exceedingly happy to ring for service and as steeple keeper I do a lot more too. As a member of the congregation I often talk to people about the bells and am often asked about them. But I also do this within my groups of secular friends. It is a question of engaging with the community, we have to be excited about what we do and tell people through word of mouth, social media and most important, being visible. Also, tell people that they don't have to go to church, everyone is welcome and that 100% of our ringing is done as a hobby! But, the relationship with the church is key and must continually be built upon to develop trust between the parties. Ignore it at our peril!

However I would prefer to see the CCCBR focussing on encouraging many other local groups of ringers to set up their own initiatives, and to share good practice. — Roger Booth

I agree with this statement. My experience in my local area is that there are no towers really taking the initiative. Ringing is fragmented. At a ringing meeting last weekend I asked several ringers if they had heard of Ringing 2030 - no-one had! As an individual tower we have not heard of it either. I have taken a personal interest and decided to try and do something about it. I have been looking at my own tower and written a paper on where we are today, where we are likely to be in 10 years time and what options we might have. Its frightening! I hope to roll out some ideas to local district towers to encourage some critical thinking.

↪Lucy Chandhial
sure I understand that. But there's really no justification with ART being so well established. — John de Overa

I'm not sure, John. People who take up a teaching profession are presumably taught how to 'teach'. ART generally doesn't, it focusses mainly on key mechanical elements of bell handling, control and basic change-ringing. A school teacher doesn't do the job because no one else will, but some ringing teachers probably do! A person might know the subject inside out but if they haven't got the correct demeanor and communication skills it might not go very well! I am an ART teacher and I might be completely hopeless! Perhaps we need to get 'Offbell' in to assess us? But, 99.9% of us are volunteers, and that changes everything!

In the past some have argued that we mustn't charge for tuition or the weekly practice night for fear it deters new blood; — Peter Sotheran

We charge to teach new ringers. So far, we have not had any problems. The fee goes into the tower fund. The learner gets 10 1:1 one-hour lessons plus a free first lesson to visit the bells, handle a rope, chime a bell etc and make sure they want to learn. They come to normal practices immediately.
We've had four recruits in the last 18 months. Nothing is free, let alone the use of specialist equipment such as church bells. In return they get taught by accredited ART techers (if that's relevant) and join the LTR scheme. (People love certificates). Important Note: we don't make a charge to raise money, but to add value to our offering. That is the key thing - adding value.