Ringing Forums

Given current financial situation cost of fuel and damage to the planet , why not move to online meetings — Robert Brown

Notwithstanding all the other issues raised in this topic, I support face to face meetings. It's not a climate change issue or neccesarily a cost issue. After all, (speaking generally) we ringers are driving here there and everywher to ring in different churches and areas. I have often said that once we get driverless cars we can stay at home and do nothing - just send the cars! On a serious note, it is a question of balance and effectiveness. Face to face meetings can be really more beneficial than online and I think people prefer them, but there has to be a real value, some of which are networking and social benefits. We value physical ringing and will drive distances to do that. We don't necessarilly see value in meetings and if CCCBR meetings do not meet the 'value' criteria they will not be supported. I'm sure its not just CCCBR, its other organisations too. 'Modern' lifestyles are changing and fewer peope are interested in taking part in not active activities - meetings being a good example.

We should be tyeazching news ringers not too look art (trees) but to starred ahead and take in the whole wood. — John Harrison

I agree.

- the list goes on. — John de Overa

We talk about a lot about ringing skills during our weekly tied bell/SIM practice.
This week's 'Five must things to be able to do to become a Change-Ringer' are:
1. Accurate bell control - and all the understanding that goes with that!
2. Understand the importance of listening and being able to! Don't just hear - listen!
3. Understand the concept and be able to dodge accurately when required - almost impossible!
4. Understand the concept of places (your place in the row and forget numbers) - the next almost impossible skill!
5. Understand the concept of ropesight and be able to excecute it!
Add ons
Stop being lazy - get out of your comfort zone - don't focus on the sally when catching it - you waste valuable time and miss a lot of visual information!
Stop being lazy - stop looking at the floor just because that's how your teachers ring!
Stop being lazy - practice counting backwards
Stop being lazy - concentrate every blow
Stop being lazy - listen
Stop being lazy - look
Stop being lazy - unless the tower falls down, this moment in time is the most important thing on earth - planning for tomorrow can wait!
Stop being lazy - use your brain and don't blindly follow other ringers - scan the circle.

Having written this list, it terrifies me!!!

We wouldn't expect people to learn to ring with just one lesson a month, I'm mystified as to why it's assumed that much more complicated skills can be gained with only 1/4 of the opportunities to practice them. I understand the challenges, but as someone who started ringing relatively recently and not as a youngster, it's absolutely no surprise that people stall around the PB level. — John de Overa

My comment isn't exactly on point but its relevant to the general approach to ringing. It starts at the very begining! We recently had a tower open session (10.00am to midday). Twenty visitors plus 7 local ringers. Pleasant morning chiming bells, drinking tea and eating cake etc. Two people said they would like to learn. We invited them to our next practice nght. One didn't turn up!
The other was very interested and attended, and we gve him a taster at backstroke and handstroke.
After the practice he stayed on and we talked at length about what was involved. I tell it how it is - committment, weekly training sessions plus attending the practice night, and then every practice night plus Sundays, and any other opportunities we can give because you can't learn ringing unless you are there (barrings hols / planned absence etc). (Also, we ask for a donation to the tower facility which didn't phase him at all.)
But here's the rub - as teachers we have to be the resource for our ringers and mentor them until they can stand on their own two feet. I'm afraid many TCs leave their learners to their own devices who are then trapped in poorly rung CCs or PB5. Of course, a lot depends on their individual enthusiasm for ringing and we are quite happy to have CC and PB5 ringers in our team.
Our potential new recruit was very happy with our approach but said up front that he couldn't commit until next year because of his business interests. We agreed to be in touch again at that time.
I would much rather have no learner than someone who isn't going to commit.

That's developed a virtuous circle where people have a sense of achievement, increased enjoyment, broadened horizons and a desire for more of the same. — John de Overa

Well done, a very positive approach. Good luck.

I'm just happy that you are talking about the issues, much of the ringing community seem to be sleepwalking towards the abyss. — John de Overa

Yes, I agree. I think that we are in an 'information vacuum'! I haven't heard anything about Ringing 2030 through my association except from the report of our only CC rep who attending the meeting in Sheffiled. (some absences due to work comittments.) There is no energy or interest!
I have been trying to champion Ringing 2030 in my district, posting articles in the newsltter and talking about it at every opportunity, but sadly no-one is listening.
Simon's Red Zone article in the RW is spot on. I mentioned this at our business meeting last Saturday. Many ringers are loyal SS ringers but don't necessarilly have ambition (or time and commitment, or interest) to advance into ringing other than basic methods.
New ringers coming in see call changes and plain bob rung badly and think thats this is what ringing is about. They have few opportunitities or encouragement to see and hear good ringing! Of course I'm speaking generally but overall I think this is where we are.
I'm a Red Zone ringer (or was!) with 60 years ringing experience, and would dearly love to give away my knowledge. But its experience too that makes ringers and that takes time, and time is something we haven't got.
I risk assessed my tower. We are all over mid-60s and into our 70s. Under current cisrcumstances I've given our tower 5 years of ringing remaining!! Let's hope it much longer!

We received an enquiry via ART from a group of non-ringers who wanted a 'bell ringing experience'. We were delighted to arrange this.

I explained that I could offer a tower tour and what it would entail. There were just half a dozen of them. We can accomodate more and if necessary split them into smaller groups and operate a shuttle service up and down the tower.

We have CCTV and were able to show the bells ringing from the ringing room, but when in the belfry we can safely ring a silenced bell too.

Our tower tours include a visit to the clock room and the belfry, finishing with chiming the bells or trying backstrokes.

We asked some of our ringers to come along too, to chat with our visitors and demonstrate ringing.

It was a very successful morning lasting 2 hours 9:30 to 11:30am. They all throroughly enjoyed it.

Before the visit they asked us how much it would cost and I asked for £10 each donation. They were very generous and gave us £90. I make the point here that I think it is important to charge at least a nominal amount.

Also ahead of the tour check that photos are ok and published on social media (always good PR for the tower), and be mindful of any safeguarding requirements.

We also advised them to wear suitable footware and clothing e.g. no open toed shoes or slip ons, and no skirts/dresses.

We do tower tours quite a lot. It may be one or two people, or goups. We have risk assessments in place for such visits. In fact, today, I was in the ringing room (behind glazed tower arch screen) cleaning up and visitors in the church waved hello. Next thing I hear is 'hello' from the bottom of the stairs. As is my wont, I nvited them up. I spent the next hour showing them around. No ringing on this occasion - you could call it 'tower tour lite', as I was on my own but they enjoyed the banter! Ad hoc visit - ready to go any time!

Please understand that I am speaking in general terms here!

We shouldn't be recruiting with the expectation that new ringers will become peal ringers! That's simply fairy-land. Dare I say that many of us on here learned as teenagers which gave us a superb advantage. Most adult learners will not become advanced change-ringers! They often don't have the time or interest to dedicate themselves to the task. Neither do they have the benefit of ringing in their formative years when learning is easier! Ringing is difficult to learn!

Just as important, most towers don't have experienced ringers to help them become change-ringers, even at the PB abd G5 level, and certainly even fewer conductors, so new ringers have to travel to training centres or other towers, if they are available.

But, we should be recruiting ringers to become good, steady and reliable at whatever level they can achieve, so that all our bells are rung on Sundays and we can begin to build up our bands again. Mature learners are key to ringing survival. In our tower we encourage progression and give every help we can for ringers to take the huge steps on from call changes to PB and G5. It is very slow work but some have rung quarter peals satisfactorily. As for the universe and beyond, I don't think we're going to get out of the Earth's atmosphere, but our well struck call changes are really enjoyable!

Young ringers need special treatment - firstly support from their parents, then encouragement to ring where they can and also join young ringers groups. We have one 12 year old and I arrange a QP for him every half term holiday which includes some of my external QP band, who are very supportive. Proud moment recently when we visited St Neots and he rang the 29cwt tenor!

Ringing 2030 is just a wish list and too few people will buy into it, indeed too few ringers will ever hear about it! Those of us who can, and who care, must continue to work hard in our recruitment and training work. I'll settle for R&CC!

There is so much frustration here, and understandably so.

The bottom line is that within ten years a lot of us are going to drop off the ringing scene. We still have a lot to offer but in most cases (generalisation) our recruits are just not up to change-ringing. Let's imagine that the number of ringers we have nationwide was not a problem and we had all our bells ringing on Sundays. What percentage of these ringers would achieve anything beyond Plain Bob and Grandsire (basic change-ringing)? I don't think it would be any greater than it is now, partly because few ringers actually want to move on. Bell ringing is usually not the only thing they do, it isn't easy, and change-ringing is even more difficult!

We should always set high targets and standards but they must be realistic. My original wish was to have a surprise minor band in my home tower. Pigs may fly!! Now, my wish is that we ring all six on Sundays.

ARA is an excellent way of helping top-end ringers and in doing so maintaining that superb ringing standard. But good change ringing isn't going to happen at a local tower level (generalisation). Middle aged learners will be lucky to ring PB5 etc and the effort in teaching is enormous.Young ringers are as rare as hen's teeth!

But the problem doesn't just belong to those in charge. I've told our ringers that they've got to work harder in their ringing, visit other towers, go to meetings, get experience, talk about ringing to others and help get recruits. However enthusiastic I am counts for nothing if others don't step up to the mark. I carried out a risk assessment for our tower and have given it 5 years! Therein lies the problem - most ringers everywhere are not aware of the impending crisis!

I'm dedicated to my ringers, (SIM practice weekly for those who are interested, including some from other towers), but they'll need another teacher in a few years time, and that's an enormous problem because we can have as many ringers as we like but with no teachers we're sunk!

In the meantime I occasionally ring the SIM for my own entertainment and to maintain my standard, and organise a few QPs here and there to enjoy good ringing with other like-minded folk.

It’s a pretty big ask and perhaps we’d be more likely to have that local leadership if we had an organisation unit that’s smaller than a district but larger than a band. — Tristan Lockheart

Yes, I agree. The Victorian model is no longer fit for purpose. We need a modern approach for Ringing 2030 to be effective.

It’s not going to be the Central Council that turns things round, it’s going to be the many ringers at grass roots level that will need to do the hard work. — Roger Booth

Here here, Roger! Iv'e just explained this to the ringers in my district, using material from the Ringing 2030 business plan.
Unfortunately, I am not confident that the Ringing 2030 project (now only 5 years left to achieve their enormous targets!) will be filtered down to association level, let alone local towers.
The business plan is a high level document but has some useful pointers for all ringers, and although this is a generailisation, my opinion is that a lot of tower ringing lacks leaders with the foresight and determination to make any difference.
I know this sounds defeatest but sadly only a few people are listening. I risk assessed my tower to determine what we have to do within the next five years to prevent decline. We are responding to this but it is difficult and a constant effort. We might not be successful!

I introduced them for our tower over a decade ago, and I've given them to all manner of people I've met on my travels because although it's our tower website much of the content is generic and aimed at non-ringers — John Harrison

Likewise. I have our tower 'business card' (inc QR code) in my wallet and in the ringing room which I hand out when the opportunity arises. Similarly, although it is for our tower website there is a lot of general information too.
We also have QR codes on our notices on the church notice boards which links to the website and a recording of the bells.
Emails to the village email group about our ringing also include a link to the website.

Thanks for your comments, with which I entirely agree. You have highlighted how complex a subject it is with the various interlinking elements.
The number of learners in our tower over the last 4 years has not made any appreciable difference to our fund (but we have discussed the implications). To me that’s not the point. It’s to do with quality of teaching and quality teachers. I have found that asking for a donation has been beneficial. It focusses the mind on quality, and financial benefits for the tower. It gives us a more ‘professional’ attitude and awareness of our responsibilities (key word), which is good for ringing in the longer term. Charging or asking for a donation, incentivises the product offering.
IMO there could never be a national model. Ringing is, on the whole, a disorganised melee of peripatetic ringers, loosely affiliated to towers and with freedom to come and go as they wish. Long may it remain so, but we do need to include a different model which is not always FOC, so that we can try to compete with other activities and which might encourage the general public to take ringing a little more seriously!

The challenge is how to get there starting from the current situation where everything is free and we are all volunteers — Nick Elks

I completely agree with your comments Nick. We all have to be brave about this. I recently helped two ringers (leaders in their own tower but with little teaching experience). I wanted to review their ringing style with them and identify ways they could help their learners. I arranged 5 weekly sessions and charged them (into the bell fund). I made lesson plans and reviews etc.They were happy with the arrangement. I don't hold with this 'volunteer' attitude that lots of ringers have. I think you probably don't either. I'm very honest about this - I ring because I love ringing. Just because I ring for nothing doesn't mean that I am volunteering! I'm not a volunteer - I'm a ringer! As you say, we are in this mindset which implies that everything is free. Ringing must be the cheapest thing to do, where else can you go and use 80 - 100k worth of equipment for nothing? Its bonkers! I'm confident that if we took a realistic and sensible approach people wouldn't mind paying a nominal amount to be taught to ring but I don't know how we change the mindset of those in charge.

But if we limit ourselves to those who have both spare time and the inclination, as well as the relevant skills then we seriously limit the availableinstructor time. — John Harrison

Yes, and a lot of the curent resource with time and skill will have reached the end of its shelf life within the next 5 to 10 years!

I am very much in favour of people paying to be taught - is what to do with the money. — Nick Elks

Hello Nick, As you might have seen in my OP very early in this thread we charge to teach. But I don't take any of the money, it goes into the bell fund which supports running the tower, including provision of teaching materials.. This is made clear from the outset. Although I am a 'qualified' ART teacher and have many year's ringing and teaching experience I wouldn't feel happy about personal gain, modest though it would be. I am still happy to give my time and knowledge FOC but am tired of teaching for nothing when nothing comes from it. Charging a nominal amount focusses the mind and adds value to our offering.

Very little comment on this subject so far! We charge to teach. It adds value to our offering. We arrange a schedule up front for ten one-hour lessons. (in reality they are over an hour because by charging we have an obligation to give good value for money too in time and skill). It is a modest amount £6 (ten weeks in advance) and compares favourably with local pilates classes. Always prepare lesson plans and give feedback - it only takes a few minutes but involves the learner thereby adding to our committment to them. The aim is for the learner to achieve ART Level 1 by the tenth lesson. These lessons are 1:1 - not on practice night. Money goes into the tower fund. In return we expect committment from the ringer and we welcome them as part of our team from day 1 expecting them to attend practice nights from the start. They always get an opportuinty to ring, e.g. backstrokes to rounds. Every tower is different, so make your own decisions about how you manage this. Training centres charge to teach - towers should consider this too. We have the same facilities - simulator, cctv and ART accredited teachers. Good luck.

But I do also think there is a misconception that the CCCBR should make things happen which forgets that the CCCBR is a representation of ringers and that things happen when ringers make them happen. — Lucy Chandhial

I completely agree with this. Last December I ran a seminar about planning for the future. The intention was to help ringers think about how their towers will be managed going forward and what they had to do to ensure that ringing will continue. I referenced CCCBR Ringing 2030 but said from the outset that CCCBR won't do this for us, it has to happen at grass roots level, saying to towers "You have to make things happen". The seminar did set some pople thinking and I received some positive feedback.
As far as my own tower is concerened, we are training up other members of the tower to be ringing masters, we are involving a third party (friend but not a ringer) in tower maintenance, we have a handbook which sets out governence of the tower and we have the usual risk assessments and safeguarding processes in place.
We are a six bell tower, with a modest repertoire, ringing CCs Plain Bob and Grandsire 5. We have 9 enthusiastic ringers. We run a tied bell practice every week using simulated sound, as well as our practice night. I run ad hoc training sessions for teaching bell handling (ART) and ringing the sim. These are for any ringers in the area. The CCCBR hasn't done any of this for us, I wouldn't expect it to - it is our initiative.
I am trying to build a culture of being pro-active so that when I stop ringing others are able to continue, knowing how ringing works (important), and to the high standards we are aspiring to.

Its all in the quality of teaching, and ownership. I think that all learners should have a mentor who can help guide the ringer on to the next stage. I encourage my ringers to visit other towers but continue to mentor and advise them.
Example: our 9 yr old visited a tower last week off his own back (with parents) and struggled with the treble. He was told that the bell was too light for him. When he reported this to me I immediately told him that the bell was not too light, he was not ringing it correctly. I then explained the technique for ringing light bells, which he took on board.
The person who told him this was incorrect, and this type of comment doesn't help learners. Instead it encourages them to be shy of light bells (in this case) whereas in this case he should have been told by the person in charge how to manage the bell. Hence the need for learners to have hands on mentors to continue to help. But we can't be with them all the time, so we rely on other teachers being up to the task!
Another thing I find from teachers/tower captains is the habit of allowing a ringer to try the bell. Answer - No! You are going to ring it anyay and the first time you ring it will be in Rounds. This is another example where teachers are not confident enough to teach their learners to have confidence.

But it is something I came acros often - learner struggles with something and no attempt is made to find out WHAT they are finding difficukt or WHY they are going wrong. — Sue Marsden

I am fortunate to be retired. Therefore I have time to give extra practises to my ringers. The issue in the case cited seems to be that the learner hasn't been taught how to dodge, or, more importantly, the difference between an up and a down dodge. This is one of the elements which I teach during our extra practices, and is more easily done at 'tied bell' practices because continuous practice can be done, and often in a group environment with other similarly experienced learners. It is the teacher's responsibility to make sure that the learner understands the various elements of ringing. Same as a school teacher needs to make sure they get the message across! Feedback is always important. Are we taking too much for granted? Are our expectations for some of our learners too high? Are our expectations for some our teachers too high? (Teachers of ringing are not necessarilly "teachers")