Ringing Forums

Alison, the original question was not about 'hard hats in belfries' but specifically 'hard hats for all above the ringing room because of a trap-door' - hence the replies tending to outline the ill-advice. The other advice surfacing is wise (including your own), but does not adress the issue of replying to 'H&S' advice that is based on 'no experience of the situation'. I would advise a calm and rational reply based on appropriate advice from the ringers, with help from Belfry Panel (i.e. Ass..) as needed.

Clearly not - the article is about attendance at services and worship, not any periferal activity.

PS on second thoughts, it's 'experience needed' in the last sentence rather than education!

Yes, lots of very good info on the use of ppe, but the question asked about 'the H&S person' - appointed by the church. Often these are people with experience of H&S matters in some way, but not thinking about particular cases. Reminds me of what is to me the first requirement of any consideration under the HSWA 1974 or it's successors - familiarity. Anyone with any experience of bell-frame examinations knows that hard hats are NOT advised. The question suggests that the said person requires one for going through a hatch .... ! This is a sure case of someone who would presumably so equip each person before visiting any castle, pub celler or loft! A definite case of 'education needed'! Ask them to climb under the bells to inspect a clapper ......

It does seem an appropriate term, it's in the Concise Oxford Dictionary (same root as punctilious, punctual, punctuate, etc - plural: puncta). .... AND Fabian Stedman himself used it!

Hm, missed that one! Thanks Nick for pointing that out. A 'blank punctum' is 'the handstroke pause' then! Wonderful term! (not to mention 111 years earlier than the Clavis).

Subsequent to opening observation above - it would appear that the Clavis (1788) contained the first reference in print of the 'open handstroke' as one beat (or to leave 'double space' at HS lead). p3.

Interesting discussion. difficult to find much in the old text books about the open HS, other than references to 'compass' i.e. striking. However thinking of it as two different 'traditions' - closed version clearly being practiced in recent history in Yorkshire and Devon/Cornwall, it is six-bell ringing that offers most ringers the opportunity to experience 'good practice', and to compare the merits of each. I remember hearing a recording of some very good Yorkshire minor ringing in the 60's (Edgar Shepherd's book and EP). Either slow minor ringing or call changes can thus be very good either way - if the ringers involved can hear their bell ...... ! (and have that sense of rhythm which can accommodate the 'art of ringing'). There's no excuse for opening up the back-stroke - that just illustrates that they don't concentrate on their leading, or can't hear their bell at all.
The reason why the 'open handstroke' became 'normal' in most of the country as far as I understand is that it averages out the tendency for handstrokes to be slightly slower than backstrokes (because of the weight of the rope). Try to have a 'two-beat' handstroke pause and you find it's too much, try to have none (closed H/S) and it's hard work on a ring of 4 or five. When ringing on handbells where 'good striking' is more easily achieved (physically, depending on ringers abitlities!), it is easiest to ask for a 'one-beat' pause rather than any other gap. I have heard of some ringers (S.major types and above) who say it should be a little closer (but not closed) on tower bells. Hm, I'm not sure about that, because 'the gap' obviously depends on how many bells are being rung! 'One beat' fits all, for the H/S gap in open handstroke ringing; seems right for me, and the bands that I have led in several different areas now.
Last thoughts - Grandsire definitely needs an open H/S - imagine doubles on the back five (no tenor behind), rung at exactly the same pace as caters with tenor behind. Lovely stuff (esp. if the caters has lots of titums and hanstroke home...). Contrast the music produced.
On the other hand - following the Yorkshire tradition ring Grandsire minor with closed H/S! (oops - some of them don't like Grandsire ... !)
As has been mentioned, it all depends on the band, local (or peal-ringing!) traditions, and the ability of ringers to 'hear their bell'; but also - I would suggest, to appreciate that sometimes it is worth exploring some of these 'variations' in our art. They are not 'foreign' - just regional!

Most of the early text books on ringing have been re-issued in facsimile in recent years, and may be available at your local Association library. Some have been made available on-line - I believe there are references to them in the CC web-site somewhere - prob. library comm. They are listed in the Dictionary of Campanology, which most libraries have.

I agree with Alison's list of prioriies - help assemble complete sets from the donations of old reports. It was amusing see in the opening comment that the 60's were 'old'! Most of the associations were formed well over a hundred years ago, and their early reports were magnificent compared to the 60's examples.
Alison's reference to GDPR I think is un-necessary for printed reports because there are addresses only given for officers, and anyway, it's all a question when it was 'published' - most reports are now only used to check membership and perhaps ringing (peals) and tower affiliations. Not something that can or ever was kept secret! With digital records there are rules (some of which are legal requirements) that secretaries should be aware of, but our ringing records are usually made to 'show' our achievemrnts, and 'private information' like addresses and records of arguments are not usually made!

These terms date back to the late 17th C.: a few are to be found in Tintinalogia of 1668 but most in Stedman's Campanalogia of 1677. Some are defineable methods and some like Gog-Magog are actually what we would call the 9-bob touch of Grandsire Doubles, the simple version given earlier rather than a different method, though in those days they would appear to have to learn instructions for the whole touch. It's rather fun to look them up - even better to see if your ringers could ring an extent using only the old system! The one that is recognisably modern is Stedman's 'Imperial' which is actually now known as Derwent Surprise Major, complete with instructions for touches leading to 1344. And it's true!

Many thanks Simon

Thank you Graham, I thought so. Useful to know about the Whiting Society too - how useful! I hope future CC publications keep to the original example set by Shipway.
David.

It sounds: did-er-ly, diderly, diderly, pom!

All the arguments FOR are actually reasons why the bells should always be rung down! There is little danger of strangers touching the ropes then. And yes, there are of course legitimate visitors other than ringers - occasionally! (e.g. builders eg roof problem, electrician, clock co, surveyor, fire extinguisher person, churchwarden accompanying any of these). The tower captain should always be told of these, but may not be able to accompany them.
If a spider IS decided on - it should be light (only a pound or so) because suitable rope (eg 6mm max dia) and pulley will allow such to fall when lowered. (and you could always add a bit more rope below the spider to pull it down if in doubt). In any case, the spider pulley should either be at the side of the RR or if in the cantre should be over a table - to avoid 'AJB's incident!

It's interesting that around these parts the idea of a 'rope spider' is quite popular - even in upstairs ringing rooms. Why hang the ropes up like that? I understand that on ground floor rings the rope must be 'put away' for safety - but not upstairs surely - where the RR is locked. Hooks around the walls are better, if required, and ringers encouraged to use the 'ringers' knot' (in all its variations!) and better still use a bowline for the 'down' position. An excellent opportunity to teach those otherwise unfamiliar with rope-work.