Ringing Forums

It still smacks of an outdated victorian modle , well passed its sell by date , I suppose the phrase that comes to mind is Turkeys and Christmas . There are things such as records that need to be kept by some body , but other than that !!!!

As a former member of the Centrsl Council, I can speak from both sides of the fence , My view of the Central Council is that in my opinion it has failed to adequatley , reform and continues to be irrelevent to most ringers who ring at their local tower go on the odd outing but have little interest beyond that. In many circumstances the same is true of many guilds and societies. There was talk at one time of moving to a members society, however that never happened , im sure on the grounds that such a modle would be unsustainable. Locally most of the ringing is arranged locally and would continue to do if guilds , associations and the CCCBR didnt exist.

Areas I would like to see addressed by the CCCBR is, and given the governace structure , why do Guild etc send multiple reps, Given current financial situation cost of fuel and damage to the planet , why not move to online meetings , ideally with slimned down representatives. How about sorting out multiple representation , im represented by five different organisations . Linked to the last point and the issue of membership im in effect contributing multiple times. Could CCCBR membership via Guild subs be considered in the sameway as the political levy linked to union membership, i.e the ability to opt out.

I could go on but ill leave it there and wait for the comments back or backlash

John , Im Devon born and bred and ring both Method and callchanges , I was at one point the Devon Association Rep on the CC and was accused in a sub groyp meeting by a very mediocre method ringer that as a Devon Call Change Ringer I did not understand what I was talking about when it came to method ringing , I had to polietly point out that I had rung a couple of thousand method peals having called about a quarter of them on all number of bells , ive also rung at a high standard in call change competitions. There is and admittedly to a lesser degree innrecent yrars has been an inherintent bias against call change ringing with some method ringers. If a person cant ring and strike their bell changing at one stroke how the hell are they going to be able to control and manage a bell changing at both strokes.

I ring with a number of top level Devon Call change ringers many of whom can ring method and strike it to a high standard.

So I have to disagree and its a comment ive heard before normaly to excuse poor standards of striking.

Method ringing should follow on from the ability to handle and strike a bell well. People are often pushed into things beforecthey are cabable and consrquently never get the basics Better good call changes than firing through method.

Looking at the comments I cant help thinking that the notion of aspiration is often linked to the expectation of others , i.e if you put forward that ringing method is the ultimate goal then that becomes ingrained as an aspiration. Coming from Devon Ive rung with a significant number of older ringers whose aim is around perfection in striking and no more. As a tower captain, ive also let in visiting bands where the quality of method ringing is to be honest nothing more than an horrendous crash around. I think the aim should always be to ring to the best standard within the capabilities of the band, I totally agree that there is no room for the word only.

I would have a chat with an air conditioning firm , the right kit will not only cool the tower down in summer but heat it up in the winter, with the right controls you coukd also set it to come on before you get there.

A few years back when the CCCBR talked about modernising there were a number of issues on the cards, reducing the number of CC Reps was one along with direct membership. Both of which have fallen by the wayside , as the saying goes you not going to get Turkeys to vote for Christmas. As others have said and given that work is undertaken by groups often including non CC members and that there is little in the way of decision making at the meeting why are Guilds and Associations sending multiple members half way around the country and in some cases the World when buisness can be held effectively on line at a fraction of the cost.

This is also putting aside the fact that if you were to poll a 100 towers across the Country most local ringers would not know what the CC is or does and even less would care.

The second issue is not only the cost in people attending a largely meaningless meeting, but the environmental impact. Again as others have mentioned Why not hold meetings on line. Having been on the CC the meetings were mind numbing in content and value and a throw back to its victorian past and inability to get real and with the times.

Had anyone critically looked at the environmental impact , can we justify the damage to the environment. If meetings in the current format continue how does the CC offset its carbon footprint.

This is of course a personal view and others will disagree. What I would add is that if Guilds and Associations want to keep with sending multiple individuals to meetings in person then they must be prepared to pay all reasonable expenses including travel, accomodation , meals and meeting expenses. As clearly there will be some that can not afford such costs in this financially challenging time.

For me the CC is a throw back to a past era which does little to impact on Sunday ringing and practice night at my local church.

I had significant problems with one individual and having discussed with the Council we agreed the following as reasonable.


No Ringing 2100 - 0800 ( save in exceptional circumstances)
Ringing for Sunday Service 45 min before
Ringing for Weddings and Funerals 45 min before 15 min after
Ringing for special events local and national ( 2 / 3 times a year 45 min)
Ringing Practice night once a week 7:30pm - 9:00pm
One visiting band a week for no more than hour
Once a month in lieu of a visiting band a period of longer period ringing such as a full peal, about 3 hrs or a competition , up to about 5 hours .

Went back to the complainer with the Council who agreed but asked that we let him know when extra ringing was taking place - If its an individual complainer council wont do much but might want you to have a policy on ringing . Slightly different if you have multiple complainers

Simon said

3. On Tuesday Charlie Linford rang an 8-bell peal with a band which had rung 16,000 peals between them. I can't see anyone getting anywhere near those sorts of totals ever again.

https://bb.ringingworld.co.uk/view.php?id=1518388

So out of interest I've looked back and albeit a couple of years back , using the current Peal totals of the individuals involved the total comes to 32, 381 , even if you knock of a thousand or so you are still well over 30,000 and that's a six bell peal

But as Simon all so said what does it matter , its just numbers , I think we (my age) have seen the best of peal ringing, having said that some of the young ringers now are doing some really exciting stuff, I would alos take issue with bands not helping younger ringers into peal ringing , Ive not found that to be the case and where a person is really keen and has opportunity then they can really thrive , as an example, ( Oliver bates) , from humble beginning's in my garage https://bb.ringingworld.co.uk/view.php?id=1236088 to ending up in Birmingham and ringing some mind blowing stuff. Interesting thread mind you.

I've never heard so much rubbish about call change ringing, there are many elements of call change ringing that method ringers can learn from, rising, lowering and striking a bell being a few of them. Also better good call change ringing than crashing around by inexperienced bands, particularly when visiting other towers. In addition , I'm a Devonian born and bred I'm Captain of three call change towers, which all ring regularly. I ring with call change ringers who can ring method , many of which have rung over a thousand peals, rung a few myself. A good call change ringer will normally pick up method ringing quickly , on one occasion we had an individual go from scratch to ringing the treble compently to doubles in one evening.

I think there are a number of issues, firstly trying to push ringers forward to quickly, on occasions having failed to address bell handling, striking and understanding of what they are trying to achieve. Also as individuals struggle they become dissalusioned . With the age of learners going up there is a lot to be said for sticking with call changes and improving the overall quality of service ringing.

Call change ringing has a lot to offer both as a skill in its own right and as a stepping stone into other things please don't disrespect those who practice it.

I'm more than welcome to point anyone in the direction of good Devon call change ringing.

Found the following on the Internet

It's the same bells as in Fat Old Sun from Atom Heart Mother. Not sure where it was made, but it's from a sound effects library, The Kinks also used the same recording on a B-side.

There are two points missing from what youre saying. The first one is that a large portion of ringers who pay Guild and Association fees are not aware that part of that funds the central council , so basically, a stealth tax. Using the Union model and political levy, this is a practice which is now unlawful. Albeit organisationally slightly different, I feel the principal is the same. Secondly and linked to the first point the majority of Guild and Association membership have no interest or even knowledge of what the central council do. If individuals wish to fund and support the Central Council then that's fine but it should be by informed choice and not via an antiquated system which is far from transparent and the CC should look at a revised funding model where those that want to subscribe do so and those that don't are not forced to. The reality is those who run the Central Council know that would be challenging, the proposal for a direct subscription model was on the table at one stage but allowed to drift out of consideration.

The final issue is the need for the CC to reorganise, given all the talk this has never happened as I said Turkeys and Christmas, there is my opinion massive savings to be made but no indication that this is or will ever happen.

Having been a member of the CC I've seen it's bad side and it's worst side. It's outdated and out of touch.

Isn't the title misleading as its not about funding ringing its about funding the central council. Given that the vast majority of ringers and towers have little or no affinity with the Central Council should the title not be clearer. Most towers and ringing in local areas is driven by a small number of individuals and would carry on if the CC didn't exist.

Given that Ringing today has been snowed off I have read the previous Surveys and comments so far . Couple of points for me based on my experiences in Devon.

There is talk of the stock of ringing tower being in good order , Prior to covid we lost a few peals due to broken ropes etc and whilst there is a lot of good work going on around bell restoration , my overall impression is that we are on a cliff edge of towers going out of action and not being fixed. Large parts of rural devon have little in the way of active towers and as such people to maintain them . Many rural churches have struggling finances - We provide ringing at a tower where the average congregation including the Churchwardens and vicar is between 5 and 10. A pretty six , kept going by splicing and resplicing ropes and fixing things like pulleys with second hand parts from towers nearby who have undergone augmentation etc. Went to a brilliant sounding G&J six in North Devon , had to repair a rope the condition of the frame was bad but saveable , no band , no interest locally , nothing has been done

Ringing and Method ringing , people make it sound bad that some ringers , don't want to progress into method ringing and are only interested in supporting the local Church on a Sunday and P/night. Its not a bad thing at all. Those that want to progress should have the opportunity, leave the rest alone !!!

Whilst another survey might be useful to some I'm not sure it wont tell us things we don't already know.

Most development in ringing is down to keen individuals rather that bureaucratic structures.

Appreciate it all sounds a bit doom and gloom , but that is the reality and where we need to be starting from.

I think you've got your answer - I wonder how much the cost of travel , accommodation etc etc cost compared to running it on line - tis only a meeting - given the rising cost of fuel and damage to the planet there has got to be a better way.

Have a look at - https://mbmcommercial.co.uk/resources/blogs/blogs/clubs-societies-and-the-gdpr-part-1.html

I think a few point are being missed here - Firstly the Bells in Church Premises are the property of the Church so they can set the rules, no point in arguing about it. If you dont like it go elsewhere. Secondly the analogy's given are a bit misleading as most contracts for use of Church Premises should contain sections around safeguarding appropriate to activity , i.e A Nursery School using a Church hall should have its own policies etc etc. John said TC has to do Leadership Level but i do 1:1 handling and only have to do foundation - That's not correct - the guidance states that anyone in a leadership role should undertaking the leadership module - you will also require a DBS certificate . I think its unfair to criticise the Church of England for being over cautious given the track record in the past and cases involving ringers who went on to be convicted. As for outings , we all have a responsibility to protect the young and the vulnerable and ensure that appropriate care is taken when visiting others locations. As a non vulnerable person turning up at a tower in another Diocese, then if they have appropriate safeguards in place at that tower its not a problem. If you have additional needs then make people aware beforehand so any additional measures can be put in place. There will always be one or two who go over board but in my experience that is not the general case. As for breaking links with the Church of England , thats just stupid given that the bells are there for the service of the Church and as a bonus we are allowed to ring them at other towers . Having said that I personally feel that the CCCBR and Guilds / etc are generally an outdated Victorian left over with most of the work to keep ringing going being undertaken by Individuals and groups, often not based or confined to geographical boundaries. Thats another debate

I agree . You need to be very specific with what you want and don't be afraid to go back and discuss quotes so you are sure you are comparing like with like in terms of the work being undertaken. Also I would avoid quotes with exclusions. I.e work to cut pockets in tower walls or installing lifting beams. If you have a builder doing part of the work and a bellhanger doing the rest and there is a problem you can end up with an argument over who is responsible. If it's all down to the hangers then when a problem arises its down to them.