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Cambridge is not my aim, there will (hopefully) be a number of methods along the way. And I was 17, yes it was easy and I totally get that the older you get, the harder it is to progress... But you didn't answer my question about how long your learners have been ringing? Mine are still making progress, but are they about to plateau? (Am I about to find out) that whilst they can ring rounds and call changes pretty well, they can't really hear their bell at all, and are not going to progress in plain hunting as quickly as I hope...?

Look at Walworth in SE London, a large number of young ringers from the congregation who aren't white and middle class. They were taught to ring in between two Sunday morning Services, however, there is little interest or support from their parents to go to any other ringing events and integrate with Surrey young ringers, both their leaders are white and from outside the area; they were represented at the CCCBR roadshow in 2019 at Goldsmiths which was right on their doorstep. — David Kirkcaldy

what is the average age of those learners? Take the ringing to them between those two services...When they are old enough they can branch out on their own.

That picture is a Chesterfield District meeting at Old Brampton a few years ago. There were in fact 6 youngsters present. I took the photo because it represented the diversity of ringers in our local area at the time. — Susan Hall

awesome, wish we were the same...

If we want ringers to have a broad repertoire of Minor and Major - ours are not going to make it!! — Phillip George

Why do you say this? It sounds like your band is similar to mine. I have at least 12 ringers in a six bell tower, and I'm probably (very nearly) always one, sometimes two short for Cambridge minor. Most of my learners are in a similar age bracket to yours, but most are less than 18 months into their ringing career... Whilst I am under no illusion that it may be challenging and a long road to get them into multiple minor, I am not yet sure that it is not possible. Are your learners longer standing in terms of experience?

We are ok for the next 5 years or so. After that, I expect that we will start dropping off, so to speak, so planning for succession is our next lmid term project!!! — Phillip George

18 months ago we regularly only managed 3 or 4 for sunday service, now we nearly always manage six, and we are progressing as a band. We will need help to progress, and my branch knows that I will be asking for that help...

I don't think it makes that much difference. Calling up or down leaves at least one bell not given all the info they need to execute the change. Most towers call up so that is what I do. I try to explain that ringers may hear "follow" rather than "to", and some will call down; and some will, as you mention, just call the numbers affected i.e. "23". I try and explain that, as far as possible, you should understand the full order of the row, those behind you and those in front of you, and obviously the two bells in front of you if nothing else. I would also point out that some towers don't ever go there with call changes and just go straight into plain hunt, so there are some quite decent ringers who would potentially struggle to ring call changes if necessary... Homework is also a great option with this. Writing it out helps to get your head around what is going on :-)

I can ring both grandsire and bob doubles reasonably well but I personally think this might be a useful skill to learn especially as my regular tower rings a fair amount of surprise minor and major. — Oliver Lee

can you ring plain bob minor (1) on the treble, and (2) on an inside bell? And (3) what method are you trying to treble bob to?

She's threatening to bring half her class along to learn — Alan C

doubles and triples awesome...!

we have a ringer who learned at the Birmingham School of Bell Ringing and is now a member of the core team who is an atheist who does not feel comfortable calling people to worship — Simon Linford

I know of a few ringers who don't regularly ring on a Sunday. But they will come out occasionally when they are specifically asked, and they do help develop their band in other ways.

awesome! Hope she sticks with it :-)

this thread is getting way off the point of the original posers. ANY way of getting people interested enough to start sounding tower bells is an entre to eventual full-circle ringing. — Mike Shelley

(sic)

Mike - I don't think this is off topic at all. The reason for my line of questioning was because I was genuinely interested in how you were getting 10 recruits per annum in through the door. I am sure a lot of towers would be very happy with that. And I was trying to understand whether the recruits are a different breed of people, for example, does the cohort that you recruit have a higher degree of musician/pianist/organist amongst them? What is the nature of the conversation that gets them to turn up? In a tower with bells hung for change ringing but no band what does that look like. I've never come across it so am just trying to understand it. And in my humble opinion, if you wrote an article for the RW, I would think they would publish it...

Many of the ethnic minorities in the UK are Christians — Lucy Chandhial

this was probably where I was coming from...but if I am being honest, I am not sure I have ever rung in 29 years with anyone who is not white...

It’s even harder for someone with an alternative religion to ring for a service which calls people to prayer for a religion they don’t agree with (as an atheist I sometimes struggle with this!) — Lucy Chandhial

Whilst I agree with this, there are probably plenty of diverse atheists out there too. No reason why they couldn't join in, in the same way that you can.

Many new ringers still say they did not know how to get into ringing, that they thought it was an invited skill rather than open to new interested people so the first task is to make it more widely known that ringers are wanted and to make ringing accessible to come and see and learn a bit about it — Lucy Chandhial

is Ringing 2030 going to take this on, because it always comes up?

Sorry to reopen this thread after so long,
— Jason Carter

This topic has popped up again recently and there's quite a long thread on the subject here, which I think you might find interesting.
27 minutes ago — John de Overa

It was me that opened that thread!. My point above was more about: did the ringing community, or more precisely, the "Ringing Word" readership, only read the articles, but not really reflect on what it really meant to them, their band, their area, their branch, their city, etc. Which meant no action was taken. If we do another survey, we need a group of people to reflect on the results, ask questions, and find teams of people, however small that are going to ask: what can we do to change this locally?

Following discussions started in other threads, I have been reviewing the 1988 Survey of Ringing which was a mammoth undertaking that sample surveyed over 500 towers and involved over 75 volunteers. The final report is over 100 pages long.

These 10 questions were posed in the Ringing World in November 1989 and they were due to be debated at an Open meeting of the Council in 1990. What happened as a result of all that survey information? Did any particular strategies come forward as a result? — Simon Linford

Sorry to reopen this thread after so long, I am new to this community... but given my recent thinking in this area and having read the 1988 survey recently and its outputs, my sense is that maybe the ringing community didn't really engage with the questions that were raised by the survey articles in the RW.I mean, nobobdy really asked: so what? That is what we need to do now...

(and no doubt someone will correct me if I am wrong :-) )

Chorley, Lancs, introduces about 10 students per year to tower bells through frame chiming and even Dove's Guide has now included a few thousand additional towers where chiming is the norm. — Mike Shelley

Mike - what are the retention rates either within chiming or change ringing? If I am honest I am with John:

It's great that you are keen on chiming but it's not realistic to suggest that it is an entry point into full circle ringing. — John de Overa

but I am trying to keep an open mind, because I have no experience of this other than occasionally seeing an Ellacombe chime in the odd ringing room...

Yes and Yes — Mike Shelley

which did you try first?

Yes, there is a prejudice against chiming, and it has existed since around the time CCCBR was formed and CRAG missed the opportunity to correct that for the next few generations! — Mike Shelley

Do you ring full circle as well Mike? And do you subscribe to The Ringing World?

why do you think it is a 'lite' approach? And why do you think it is easier for a less experienced teacher? (btw I am very comfortable teaching on my home tower bells but not as comfortable teaching in another tower, due to the relative lack of familiarity with the bells... and I have never tried teaching from the down position...) Very interested to understand your thoughts :-)

As far as making progress goes, from looking at previous surveys, one of the top issues that people raised was lack of opportunities to do so. I don't see any signs that has changed. That is inevitably going to get worse as the number of towers ringing beyond a basic level continues to decline. My own tower had not rung anything beyond PH for the last 46 years (at least). Post COVID we are starting to ring simple methods, with pretty much the same band that was there before. Everyone has embraced the changes, they go off and do homework and are delighted when we manage the next challenge. The tower was apparently the definition of "reached their natural level", but it wasn't so - the problem was lack of opportunity, not lack of latent ability or willingness. — John de Overa

This is very positive John, and I understand from earlier posts that you have written, where your band has come from, so I am glad that you are making progress. I still think some of your band will probably reach a natural level though.

Yes, we need to bring in more people, but if they hit the same roadblocks to progression that have been there for many decades, what's the point? — John de Overa

This is the key problem. I ring in a six bell tower where if we can ring plain bob doubles, that is a good practice night. But I am actively going to "ask" more experienced ringers to come and help my learners develop their ringing, so that they can move beyond plain hunt and plain bob...

Recruiting people when they are young (and retaining them) is clearly what is needed for the long term and I'm sure ageism isn't an issue in your tower, but it's something I and other "mature" ringers in my cohort have faced continually since we started, it's a pretty widely held belief that late starters are a waste of time - I've had people tell me it to my face. I don't think ringing in it's current state can be picky - we need to welcome everyone who wants to ring and make sure they don't meet any barriers to progression, no matter what level they top out at. — John de Overa

100% agree. I am finding at the moment (via Facebook) that it is not too hard to find "mature ringers" (as you put it :-)) I am hoping that maybe RINGING 2030 will help to find those younger ringers, and I want my band of "mature ringers" to be ready to embrace them and develop them when they come online...and that will massively contribute to the future of our art. :-)

We have two already:

1: Devon-style call changes - easier to learn to ring below the balance; quicker to reach an acceptable standard; an end in itself.

2: Bob Minor on handbells - Plain hunt can be taught in a single session; Plain courses in a few more; Quarter-peal as a short-term objective (straightforward if there are two experienced helpers). — Graham John

On item 1 I have often wondered this...would it be better to teach a learner with a bell that is down...and start to ring it up..to whatever level...maybe just below the balance. I am not sure, and I have never tried.

On item 2 I am inclined to agree, this could be an easier way into change ringing... but (caveat) I have found the lower slopes relatively easy. I would like to try some more steeper slopes though... :-)

I don't understand the focus on "learning quickly" either, why does it matter? Which is more use to ringing long-term, someone who learns quickly and then drops out, or someone who learns more slowly but becomes a solid long-term ringer? — John de Overa

"Learning quickly" is not the most important thing John, however it is relevant. Learners that make more rapid progress, do help to progress the general ability of the local band/area, and more quickly, even if they do eventually move away, or even give up. And moving away doesn't matter. One tower's loss is another one's gain...

where are the young people? , and how do we give them the experience/help that they need...?
— Jason Carter

Why is that specific to young people? What about the thousands of existing ringers who have got stuck and aren't able to make further progress? We don't have to recruit or do basic training for those people, they already ring. Why focus on recruiting new young ringers when we can't even maximise the standard of the ringers we already have? — John de Overa

You are quoting me out of context as you are about to say later on... Every ringer reaches their natural level, and many can't move far beyond that. Maybe some can... but many wont be able to. And I think we all accept that we do need to bring more new people into ringing, for the long term good of the exercise. ..

Here is where you quoted me out of progress (by not including this bit)...

That doesn't mean more mature learners should not also be given opportunities to develop
— Jason Carter
— John de Overa

(and its only one aspect). That doesn't mean more mature learners should not also be given opportunities to develop — Jason Carter

Fine words, but in practice mature learners are usually discarded as being a waste of time and effort. The rampant ageism in ringing seems to pass completely without comment, indeed it's the accepted norm.

I note you chose to not include my preamble John. "

(and its only one aspect). — Jason Carter

You are very welcome at my practice. I currently have 8 learners that I have recruited in the last 16 months who are all older than me (46) and who are making good progress. Ageism is not an issue in my tower. But I would like to find some ringers who are younger than me as well. :-) for the longer term health of the exercise.

The fundamental issue is that there are too many platforms or communication channels..(deleted)...and so the proliferation of local, secondary or specialist groups in a plethora of comm's channels took off leading to the fragmentation of the world of ringers. The result is a massive duplication of channels rendering it completely impossible to be certain that any message will reach all of its intended targets.

I guess the only answer is to create yet one more channel that will attract/embrace everyone - or is that what this forum was intended to do?? — Peter Sotheran

We have to move forward as technology progresses Peter, whilst at the same time maintaining older technology for as long as it is reasonably practicable. I would say email is in danger, as is facebook, and we need to start moving forward into WhatsApp and Instagram...