Comments

  • Central Council less democratic?
    ↪Barbara Le Gallez
    that's not the most obvious test of democracy, but of course it is possible, as indeed it was before the reform.
    The premise of your example was 'if they can't get the relevant committee interested', which implies a degree of engagement already and a desire to escalate the matter to the next level. Each workgroup has an Executive sponsor to whom the workgroup lead is responsible, so he/she would be the person with whom to raise the question, and there's no need to wait until the annual meeting. Of course if you also disagreed with the Executive then you could raise it at the annual meeting, and seek the support of other members.
  • Central Council less democratic?
    it is less democratic in that individuals get fewer chances to make their voices heard. — Barbara Le Gallez
    I think you've misunderstood how the Council does and did work. Under the old regime the only requirement for officers or committees to report to members was at the annual meeting, and apart from electing committee members there wasn't much more voting than now. Under the new regime the officers are empowered to do more, but they have to report on their decisions monthly, and members can 'call in' any decision if required.
  • President's Blog
    ↪John de Overa
    I think my comment about life support hasn't quite been understood. Of course life support for a band is better than death, and worth the effort to succeed and get back to health. But I was referring more generally to ringing. To be sustainable in the long term it needs to do more than avoid dying.
    Excellence at all levels is a good focus, and I would interpret it in terms of attitude more broadly rather than narrowly in terms of just striking.
  • President's Blog
    It's easy to assume that most young ringers are good ringers whereas I think it's truer to say that there's some heavy selection going on ... the dedicated, and almost by definition, good ones who stick around. — John de Overa
    I'm sure that's true. Of the ringers I've taught it's the good ones who are still ringing. And I'm sceptical that youngsters have more alternative uses of their time than older folk. I suspect they only stick of they get something out of ringing, whereas older people may be motivated by other factors, loyalty, service, etc.
    I remember when I met Pat Canon in 1964 he bemoaned the fact that most of his band only rang out of duty, and weren't really interested in ringing. That remark stuck with me, and I think it is very relevant. Do we want keen ringers who will ensure ringing thrives? Or do we want it kept on life support by well meaning people who aren't that keen?
  • Central Council less democratic?
    ↪Tristan Lockheart
    Being central is compounded by being one layer removed. Starting from scratch we would have a (inter)national body, with a regional structure of suitable granularity to operate locally. That would enable it to 'do' things through its local structure, which would be its visible face. But for historical reasons we don't have that. The Council is loose federation of independent societies, so what it can 'do' is limited, and so is its visibility.
    If you read the Council's history that wasn't the original intention. The plan was for a national ringing society but its proponents (a committee) didn't promote the idea very well. They assumed it would be a pushover but the existing ringing societies were against it. The resultant weak structure was Haywood's compromise to get them onside.
    One of CRAG's recommendations was to consider converting the Council to a direct member organisation. Despite the merits of the end state, the difficulty is making the transition from the status quo. When the old Admin Committee considered it in 2014 it got kicked into the long grass. More recently the Executive considered it (as the Council's rules require it to do every few years) but decided it was currantly too difficult to do it in a way that would command enough support.
    Advocates of direct membership will criticise the Executive for being too timid, but if its assessment is correct then it's a criticism of the ringing community clinging to its Victorian structures.
    Returning to the original topic, direct membership properly implemented would almost certainly feel more democratic the the grass roots member.
  • Central Council less democratic?
    Jane Wilkinson .... the Council is seen as increasingly undemocratic.” — Simon Linford
    I have heard that sentiment several times in recint years, in Council meetings, from opponents of the reforms the reforms that the Council has now overwhelmingly accepted.
    Outside the Council the complaints I have heard are about being effective or useful, not about being democratic.
    Democracy matters with an organisation that has power, to make laws or whatever. But the Council has negligible power. It can only achieve results by persuasion or example.
    It's old structure was slow, cumbersome and erred on the side of not making decisions. Ive seen a lot of good ideas kicked into the long grass during my time on the Council.
    In contrast, the new structure gives the Executive a remit to get on and do things, and to report on what it is doing so the representative members can hold it to account. If we don't like what the Execitive does then it's our job to hold it to say so, and in extremist to call in its decisions.
    So far, the new system is working better than the old. There's some way to go though, so no cause for complacency.
  • Teach Plain Hunt before Call Changes?
    ↪John de Overa
    I didn't say anything about learning only with a simulator. That's not sensible unless you don't have any real ringers to ring with. But I don't think it sensible to inflict the complexity if real ringers on someone, with the confusion of ropesight and the need to ride through other people's inaccuracies, until they have developed the ability to ring rhythmically, fitting in with an external beat. That's why they learn to control a bell with a simulator between learning to handle a bell safely and coping with live ringers. It has other benefits. They know they can hear their bell rather than it being an aspiration for later. The know they can place the next blow by rhythm, so no need to panic if they can't see who's in front of them. And above all they can get nearly an hour of quality rope time for an hour of their time and one other, rather than getting a much shorter amount of less quality time with a much bigger need for supporting effort.
    But of course they need a lot of ringing with (and standing behind) other ringers as well as time with a simulator.
  • Teach Plain Hunt before Call Changes?
    not modelling wheel sizes for the moving ringers. An experienced ringer actually picked up on that when I gave him his first go on the simulator — John de Overa

    Anyone I teach first rings with the simulator long before trying to cope with lots of moving ropes, real let alone simulated.
  • Teach Plain Hunt before Call Changes?
    he true rhythm of plain hunting with an open hand stoke lead, — Nigel Goodship

    This is described on p89 of The New Ringer's Book with diagrams showing the true path when hunting uo and down.
  • Teach Plain Hunt before Call Changes?
    ↪John de Overa
    yes , in round figures for six bells the ratios are 5/6, 6/6 and 7/6. Pedantically you would start with your 'normal' speed (in our case around 2h50m, but 3h is near enough to demonstrate the difference.
  • Teach Plain Hunt before Call Changes?
    The first time I did this with someone who was already PH-ing with the band, they were all over the place and they were astonished at how big the speed changes were supposed to be — John de Overa
    Some ringers aren't even told they are supposed to change speed, just told to think in terms of places and/or bells to follow. That puts them at a huge disadvantage.
    I have always introduced learners to different speeds before they hunt but I now do that in a way that gives them more practice and feedback. I get them to ring rounds at 2 1/2 him and 3 1/2 hour peal speeds as well as 3 hours, which correspond to hunting down hunting up and rounds.
    I ask them to ring 'fast' or 'slow', and if necessary adjust the speed towards the target value. Then let them ring for several minutes at that speed, with prompts or comments as required, and then discuss what hey did, what it felt like, and how to overcome any problems.
  • Costs of training to become a bell ringer
    ↪Peter Sotheran
    sport doesn't imply competition. A lot of sports are not. Read the official definition and you will see it is a good fit for ringing.
  • Costs of training to become a bell ringer
    ↪Peter Sotheran
    can't it be both? Ringing has many facets, and shares features with both sports and musical performance.
    I think ringing would be better if more ringers considered themselves performers, but the match is far from perfect. For example it's quite hard to map ringing onto the assessment structure used for conventional musical instruments.
    If you are interested see: https://jaharrison.me.uk/Ringing/Music/
  • Costs of training to become a bell ringer
    few years ago there was a concerted effort made to have ringing recognised as a sport in order to try to access grants from Sport England (or some such). The clear answer was a firm 'no'; ringing was not defined as a sport. — Peter Sotheran

    That's an over simplification. The biggest objection came from within the CC from those who didn't want to scare the horses (the CofE) by suggesting ringing was anything other than a call to worship. (And if the story ever gets written that related to CC reform like the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand did to WW1)
    If you read the official European definition of a sport (which Port England uses) you will see that ringing ticks virtually every box. We would have needed an anti doping policy, but that's not hard (I wrote a draft version).
    The biggest problem was internal, as it is when trying to doing anything different in ringing. Ringers argue with each other and leaders give up in preference to upsetting anyone.
  • Visual aids when ringing
    ↪Rosalind Martin
    I've rung at towers where the Treble rope had a different coloured Sally.
  • Association/Guild Direct Membership Organisation??
    A single central organisation for ringing need not be incompatible with a more local association / guild / district / branch). Many other voluntary organisations operate this way with a central HQ alongside local / regional units. /quote]
    There is an important difference though. An organisation with central and regional units is different from a lot of independent organisations, each with a history. You have to overcome the pride in that independence and history.     — Alison Hodge
  • GDPR for ringing records (Library / Archive)
    ↪Phillip George
    istr we were told 25 years, but. I can't remember the criteria.
  • Costs of training to become a bell ringer
    Taking the QP week case ... it's pretty pointless in terms of their progression — John de Overa
    Agreed. We promote 'quarter in every tower' events not as progression but to encourage as many as possible to feel engaged by taking part in major events. The first was for our centenary and others have been for national ringing events. We do have an annual QP week in the diary, but that's just to act as a gentle jog to bands that occasionally ring quarters and might like a focus.
    For progression we rely on regular events, for the well attended Elementary Practices that we introduced a couple of years ago when we identified the need. We also run a number of courses, mainly skill based rather than method based, that are arranged to suit those who need them. See: http://odg.org.uk/sdb/training/
  • Costs of training to become a bell ringer
    If it isn't working, why are you still doing it?
    You've exactly illustrated my point, branches / associations carry on doing the same thing over and over and are apparently puzzled why something that didn't work for the last 10 years still doesn't work this year.     — John de Overa
    What we are doing is working for some of our members, but not all of our members want to be helped.
    Nor are we just doing what we did ten years ago. We are doing other things as well, for which we identified a need.
    Beware of over generalisation. It's possible to do some useful things while beong aware that more could be done.
  • Costs of training to become a bell ringer
    the ethos and purpose of districts/associations needs to change radically f — John de Overa
    I'm not sure the purpose needs to change. I see our branch purpose as to help provide the opportunities and services that members can't get from their own bands, and which the Guild is too remote to provide.
    The problem is achieving that purpose in the face of (a) limited resources and (b) low desire of many members to avail themselves of such services, even when offered.
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