Ringing Forums

the speed varies a lot, from zero to quite fast in under half a second, — John Harrison

An interesting aside: I was talking to a friend who has built an incredibly accurate simulator which models the physics of the bell/wheel/rope system, you can even "bounce" off the nonexistent stay, or ring as if you were on the moon (i.e. very slowly!). He told me that during his modelling work he found out why some ropes can "jump wheel". It's because wheel is moving faster than gravity can accelerate the rope downwards, so if the ringer doesn't keep tension on the rope it will "float" off the rim.

Whether charging learners or not it is important that those teaching ringing are 'qualified to do so' in that they have Church of England Safeguarding training (which can be done on-line for free) and of course have a current DBS certificate. — Jane Pridmore

Safeguarding is about protecting those who are vulnerable, only a minority are. Whilst having SG training / DBS is good practice, enthusiastic over-application of "Safeguarding" to situations irrespective of it's appropriate or not is one of the current blights on ringing.

If I charge for ringing teaching and the person doesn't like it or want to continue will I be giving them their money back?' — Jane Pridmore

If you asked a decorator to paint a room and then decided you didn't like the colour you'd chosen, would you expect the decorator to refund what you'd paid them? No, I thought not.

The biggest problem I've seen with ringing training is that some people believe that because they are accomplished ringers themselves, they automatically have the skills to teach others. Yes, many can but there are lots of towers where the TC is teaching people to ring "Because they are the TC" when they are completely unfit to do so.

We are holding a "So you want to learn to ring?" taster session next week, the cost is £15 but if people want to take it up we probably won't to charge them for lessons, The intent of the charge was to filter out those who just want to have a go pulling a bell rope - we already provide that "experience" during our tower open days.

I'm not personally opposed to charging though, we have one young promising learner who's attendance is only intermittent, if there was a monthly up-front charge I'm sure we'd see him more often.

Many ringers who ring by following ropes don’t consciously change speed, they merely make a number of enforced steps, the aggregate effect of which is an approximate speed change, but one that is always a bit behind the curve, and fails as soon as they fail to see the next rope to follow. That might be what happens at the back. — John Harrison

When I started ringing the band struggled to get past back rounds in Plain Hunt. The reason was that the ringers with the worst bell control would only ring the front bells, and they could only ring at two speeds, slow and slower. The rest of the band were completely dependent on bell numbers, so once the front bells got to the back they just festered there with the rest of the band desperately trying to hold up over them. The concepts of in, rounds & out speeds, let alone "at the front" or "at the back" were all a mystery. It can be difficult for experienced ringers to fully appreciate the almost complete lack of situational awareness that afflicts some ringers, they can only ring by bell number and then only if all the bells they are over are in the right place.

Saying the name of a place doesn’t help them to know where it is and how far from it their bell is, nor the action they need to get it their. The counting goes on in one part of their brain, separate from the rest which carries on doing the same unsuccessful actions as before. — John Harrison

This is very true. I can think of the case of one ringer who would insist they were counting places and were therefore in the right place when there was a fire-up. What they were actually doing was counting pulls, pulls that were divorced from the speed the rest of the band were ringing at.

I think a large part of these problems are due to the way ringing is taught, with insufficient emphasis on rhythm and listening. That creates dependence on other people being in the right place visually, whereas what's really needed are the skills to be in the right place in time, independent of others.

A simulator exercise I use is to get people to ring with the moving ringers and highlight ringer turned on, and when they have rung a couple of steady leads, I turn the screen off and tell them to keep going. I don't tell them in advance because they invariably say they won't be able to do it, whereas they almost invariably can. The goal is to show them that they *do* have rhythm and listening skills, but they are being swamped by the emphasis on vision that dominates ringing teaching. A large part of being able to ring by rhythm is having the confidence to actually try it.

We have had many discussions about ringing by vision versus listening/rhythm in our tower. Some of us can see the order of the bells all the time, I can't do that but I can ring Surprise Major on the simulator just by ear. I can't comprehend how they can see all the bells, they can't comprehend how I can ring without seeing them at all. I suspect the top-flight ringers can do both, the rest of us have to do the best we can by emphasising our natural strengths and working on our weaknesses. One of our learners is very sound-dominated and always been able to pick out their bell and could cover well from the start by "Just being the last bong". Another learner will "accurately" clash away forever, because they are ringing just by vision and can't hear their bell. We've adapted out teaching specifically to them, some teaching I've seen seems to be adapted to the proclivities of the teacher rather than she student.

But the common thing they all need to get sorted first is bell control, without that they don't have the skills to get the bell in the right place, even when they know it's not.

Ultimately many ringers fall somewhere in between, motivated to ring well and sometimes try new things but often looking at ringing as a stress reducing (and sometimes primarily social) hobby. — Lucy Chandhial

I originally read that as "stress inducing" :lol:

All good advice. I think the other thing to remember is that if you are motivated enough to take on the responsibility of TC, teaching, helping people progress etc, you are probably at the upper end in terms of motivation and ability. The majority will therefore be less motivated / able than you are, which doesn't mean they aren't interested in progression, just that it's less of a priority for them. And from observing the people I ring with, motivation is not a fixed thing - people can progress fairly quickly and then appear to plateau. That can be for a number of reasons - wanting to just enjoy where they are at, wanting to consolidate skills, or other things happening in their lives. But a few months later they may be champing at the bit again, and wanting to drive forwards. You just have to accept and adapt to that.

well, some of the practices I've been to have been a right performance :razz:

The public won't necessarily know which are practices and which are performances, but despite what many ringers tell themselves, the public absolutely can tell the difference between good and bad ringing.

I agree with everything @John Harrison has said in his last 2 posts, I think his warning about not letting "fun" slide into "anything goes" also needs to be heeded. I was at a practice recently where there was the most appalling crashing about, even in rounds, and serious handling faults were going undressed. At the end of each cacophony the leader's response was "Well done!", which it absolutely wasn't. When there was a suggestion that we ring PH8 one of the senior ringers there quite rightly put her foot firmly down, "If you can't ring it on 6, you shouldn't be attempting it on 8". As they wryly remarked to me afterwards, "Clearly public relations isn't a concern for them". They seemed to either forgotten, or just not cared, that even our practices are public performances.

How does a band decide where on the continuum it lies? Does a consensus develop? What role should the Tower Captain play in this? ... I feel that this is some leadership test that I have failed, so what I am really asking is "what is that test and what do I do in order to pass it?" — Barbara Le Gallez

If you think being TC requires passing some sort of leadership test then I think you've misinterpreted the role. Being TC does not empower you to decide for others what their targets and level of effort are, if you try they'll probably just leave. You can provide opportunities, encourage and support, and that's it.

You seem to be viewing the situation as if it's static, it isn't. Just because someone is keen now it doesn't follow they will remain so, just because someone shows initial promise it doesn't mean it will come to fruition. And the opposite of both those is true as well.

It sounds to me like you are putting a lot of responsibility and stress on yourself, I don't think that's a good idea, either for you, or the band. I think you need focus on your and the band's enjoyment of ringing, the rest may well follow. It's hobby, not a job.

I have watched many (older) people struggle to progress beyond plain hunt and I believe that we expect them to pick up a myriad of micro-skills by magic, much faster than they possibly can.
The danger is we may over-focus on ropesight and memorising the circle of work, when the missing micro-skills are mostly around bell handling. The plain hunt they have "mastered" is actually badly struck. They are not yet ready for bob doubles! — Rosalind Martin

The most important thing a teacher can do is to try to determine through observation what the deficient micro skills are, and then work with the pupil to try to find ways to strengthen them. — John Harrison

As an older starter, I can confirm you are both absolutely right, both in terms of the problems and how best to address them. I was led to believe that ropesight was some sort of magical gift I needed to be granted in order to progress any further - I nearly gave up as a result. But as my bell control and striking improved, so did my ropesight - which bell I was after became "obvious" as I was already in the right place anyway - a virtuous circle.

The step up from CCs to PH is big, I think it's an even bigger jump to methods, that was my experience and those I teach say the same thing. I think you are both spot on about micro skills, the best way of helping with that is micro feedback. Adults in particular seem to do best with feedback that's Specific, Measurable, Actionable, Realistic and Achievable (SMART) but in ringing it often consists of "Your dodges/leading/whatever are still wrong, we'll try again next week". It can be difficult to give that level of help that's needed during normal practices and it requires a lot from the teacher. Plus, like sports, being a top-rank player doesn't always translate into being a top-rank coach, it's a scarce skill.

I think the other thing is that acquiring these skills is a process that never stops. When I moved from 6 to 8 bells, I had to improve my ropesight and striking which took time & effort, now I've I started on Bristol after Cambridge, my striking needs more work.

yes, and you can use the striking monitor to show them exactly where any wobbles are, for example slowing down between 2nds place and the lead when hunting in, rather than "pushing on in" seems to be common.

A possible solution to Barbara's problem might be to have a month in which no "teaching" is carried out with the individual but in which she participates in ringing that is chosen to allow her to utilise such skills as she has already acquired in a lower-stress manner — Mike Shelley

I run weekly simulator sessions and as far as possible I make them participant led. It's a low pressure environment and if they want to spend half an hour practicing the same thing over and over, that's fine. And people's first attempts at PH are done that way as well.

It’s worse than that, they are often told to look at the bell they are following (or the one they are about to follow, though how they know which one without learning the numbers isn’t explained). — John Harrison

Yes, that was certainly my experience :lol: I remember being complemeted on how much my ropesight had improved, after I stopped laughing I said it was my notsight that had improved, not my ropesight - I'd become better at filtering out bells I couldn't possibly be after, which reduced the number down to something my limited ropesight could cope with. Part of that was doing as you say, other things that helped were taking advantage of method structure and concentrating only on the bells moving slowest relative to you.

it is true that I am frustrated, indeed dejected. The senior members of the band and I seem to have done everything we possibly can to recruit and inspire, yet to almost no avail. — Barbara Le Gallez

I understand where you are coming from, the tower I learned at used to rung Surprise every week and regularly had 10-16 people attending. It's now down to just 4 regulars, CC & PH at best. But when I started, my home tower was down to a core of just 3, and the bells were bordering on dereliction. Since then the bells have been rehung and this week we had 9 at practice, even though 3 of the ringers who were there before the rehang aren't ringing any more.

I remember what the TC at the time I started said to me, which was that as long as the bells were kept ringing in some form, he had faith that eventually more ringers would appear - he was right, and we owe him a big debt for keeping the bells going even when things must have seemed very bleak.

I think you also have to bear in mind it's a percentage game - if 25% of the people who start become long-term band members you have done well, if more than 5% become competent method ringers you are doing very well - that's based on the ART dropout rates. The truth is that in many areas of the country, method ringing beyond plain courses of PB5 is the exception not the norm, and that outside of the remaining area of excellence, Blue Zone and above ringing is either heading rapidly towards or is already functionally extinct. Building a method band in those areas means doing so from scratch. That's not impossible, but when there's no surrounding pool of support it's very hard and is going to take years to achieve.

A happy practice night is so important. However much people enjoy technical or other aspects of ringing, they won't keep coming if the atmosphere isn't something they enjoy. — Richard Pargeter

Spot on! Of all the practices I go to, my home tower has the nicest vibe. There's a genuine sense of "We are all in it together" and feedback on issues is a discussion, rather than finger-wagging. As a result people feel comfortable to admit "I messed X up" because they know it will be used to help fix things rather than being a source of criticism.

We have an fantastic Tower Captain and his approach sounds almost exactly like yours. It makes a huge difference to people's motivation, and that has a direct positive impact on their progress. We are very lucky to have our TC, and your tower are lucky to have you!

I came to ringing late and have always struggled with ropesight. — Corinne Orde

Same here. I kept being told "It will suddenly just come" which was utterly useless advice because it never did, and because it had absolutely no information at all on how to work on the skill. Techniques for gaining ropesight can be taught, but almost universally aren't, instead people are told to just hope for divine intervention. What made a big difference to me was starting to ring on 8 on the simulator, which I found incredibly hard - but when I rang on 6, it was suddenly much easier.

The other thing that isn't often talked about is that for some people, vision is dominant whereas for other's it's hearing. Our newest learner from the start has known what place she was in just by listening, the one before her is entirely visual and will obliviously crash away because he can't hear which bell is his.

We've frequently discussed this at our tower, the TC & other experienced ringer are very visual, they can see the bells "come down in order", I can't comprehend how they can do that. On the other hand, I can ring Surprise Major on the simulator entirely by ear, they can't comprehend how I can do that.

I suspect that most of the "black zone" ringers are the lucky minority who have both excellent vision and listening skills. For the rest of us, maximising the dominant sense whilst strengthening the weaker one is what's needed.

Amen. I very nearly gave up ringing at the PB5 point, once it became clear I'd have to stop using bell numbers and pretty much start from scratch, using places/ropesight. Ropesight in particular was something I really struggled with, I'll always remember the feeling of being totally overwhelmed trying to simultaneously dodge properly, remember the line, count places & spot which bell I was over.

Fortunately (?) my tower doesn't have enough experienced ringers to ring PB5, for method ringing so we use Minimus methods + 2 covers. Some people who won't take the armbands off are still ringing by bell number, but the ones who understand why numbers are a dead end are ringing by places/ropesight as on 4 it's pretty much as easy to do that as it is to remember the numbers. Our hope is that once they have solid Minimus places/ropesight, stepping up to 5 then 6 will be an extension of what they can already do, rather than a big leap requiring the simultaneous acquisition of multiple new skills.

I also think you are right about motivating people by dragging them to the sunlit uplands. QPs are one way but we don't have a band that's capable of them. What I've done instead for the furthest on of our "second wave" is to get them to ring Oxford TB on the simulator. They'd already been learning to TB Hunt on the sim, and they already knew Bastow front work. I didn't show them the blue line in advance and they were using the simulator's moving ringers, "follow this bell" and the blue line down the side to provide as much support as possible. I explained that what they were going to ring was basically TB Hunt but without dodges at the lead (so easier :wink:) , a chunk of Bastow treble work bracketed by dodges with the treble, and some bits where they plain hunted with turnarounds in the middle, they should just ring and I'd tell them what to do next as we went. Much to my surprise & delight, they got through on the first attempt.

Big grins when they stood the bell, followed by huge wide eyes when I showed them the blue line of what they'd just rung. They completely realise that there's a lot of work between that and ringing it "for real" and unaided, but it showed them that they could physically ring something they would have baulked at if they'd been told to go away and learn the blue line. It was hugely motivational for them and what was a seemingly impossible dream has become a target.

We don't have to reach ringing the way it was taught 50 years ago, and when it comes to bell handling, we usually don't (thank you ART!). But we persist on trying to teach methods in a way that has always resulted in the majority of ringers either stagnating, or giving up. With the age profile and numbers of fresh starters, that approach is no longer sustainable.

Could your association invest in a comb binding machine? You'd have to store the pages loose until you had enough to bind, but if it's for association records it's probably something you'd only have to do once a year. And there are also places that will bind documents for you.

I'm no expert but if the goal is retention for many decades I suspect laser printing on archival grade paper is the way to go. I'm not sure about the long term stability of inkjet inks.

So perhaps something motivated you, John, which did not motivate the other members of your cohort? Do you know what it was? — Barbara Le Gallez

I've spent 40+ years thinking about, looking for and manipulating patterns that change dynamically (software engineer), so that bit felt familiar, and I learned to play Afro-Brazilian percussion to a high standard as an adult, so the rhythm side was familiar as well. I was also interested in the theoretical side of ringing from early on, although I'm no mathematician. Beyond that, large helpings of obsessiveness and stubbornness - I started ringing because it looked hard (I was right), I carried on because I wouldn't let it defeat me (it very nearly did).

So I think that means that I'm an outlier. My observations of the top level of ringers is that they usually are as well - they mostly started young, have the necessary mix of natural aptitudes, got the high level of support that's needed and most of all, they stuck at it. In my case my mid-50s start, lack of some of those aptitudes and the state of ringing where I live will impose a ceiling on my progress, but I haven't hit it yet and I haven't got bored trying to reach it yet.

That's not to say that the other people in my circle aren't motivated, but everyone's situation is different and therefore their degree of motivation, rate of progress and ultimate goals will differ as well, which is fine. @Lucy Chandhial's example of their RftK ringer is familiar and I think their approach is spot on - they are providing gentle prodding and support, but the pace is being driven by the ringer. I always try to remind myself that nobody takes up ringing with the intention of being bad at it, but it's one of the most difficult things an adult will learn from scratch.

And thanks for the invite :smile:

I now realise that the question I should have asked was "How to MOTIVATE a ringer who has reached a plateau and wishes to stay there, and becomes stressed when I guide her towards the next ascent? ... But - as a teacher I feel that it is my job to improve my ringers. And as a tower captain I feel that it is my job to ensure the succession - and this lady and her husband are the only ringers in the band who are capable of taking it forward into the future. — Barbara Le Gallez

Wow, there's a lot to unpack there. You say she's "reached a plateau and wishes to stay there" - isn't that your answer? To me, the job of a teacher, particularly when adults are involved, is to provide opportunities, encourage and support people's progress - and that's it. Have you actually asked them if they want to be the tower's "succession plan"? That's a big ask - and therefore you need to actually ask. People have every right to decide what they feel is "enough progress". Not one of the people who started ringing with has got anywhere near as far as I have - which isn't saying all that much. But that's fine, they turn up regularly and enjoy their ringing and their towers would be silent without them. Others do want to keep moving forwards, some more quickly than others and that's fine too. People have the right to decide, and we need to respect their decisions.

The obvious answer is "Don't try" - trying to do so will merely result in unhappy practice nights and sooner or later she will walk away. — Barbara Le Gallez

Yes. I almost certainly would.

As a "late starter" myself and as someone who is trying to help others climb up the hill behind me, I think the advice in the posts so far is excellent and aligns with my experience and observations. A couple of comments:

Lucy’s point about adults being uncomfortable with things they can’t do well is true. — John Harrison

This is absolutely right, but does vary from person to person - some adults are fine with it. And I think it depends on context, for example 1:1 sessions on a simulator can help give build confidence when doing it "for real" in a practice.

the sticking points are: moving on to methods and acquiring ropesight — Barbara Le Gallez

I think it's easy to underestimate just how big a jump it is from PH to even PB - the learner's Facebook groups are full of despondent ringers who have been stuck there for a long time. Multiple new skills are needed, particularly as most learners ring PH by bell number, even if they claim they don't. They have to simultaneously learn to count places, remember a method, develop ropesight and up their bell control for dodging. Anything you can do to help break that down into smaller steps will help them. In particular, endless failed attempts at PB just make things worse. We wouldn't expect someone learning an instrument to do it by playing in a performance, but in effect that's how ringing is usually taught.

If she can do that well then she must know where she should be, and she has a sense of going quicker or slower to get there. ... It shouldn’t be too onerous a step to extend that to things like continuous dodging or repeated place making, and then to treble dodge hunting. — John Harrison

We've had a lot of success with that approach, for example getting people to ring the front/back work of Double Oxford Bob, but in 3/4 rather than at the front/back, pairing them with an experienced ringer whilst the rest of the band rings rounds, then moving them to the front, and so on. Ringing the standard 2-courses-of-PBD-a-week they'd get to do 4 dodges, this way they get 6 in one short shot, and you can repeat until they are comfortable. We also use Minimus methods a lot, with 2 covers so the handling is easier. That's great for helping people develop ropesight as they only have to consider 3 other bells.

Think how she got to be in the wrong place, did she leave the back too soon, hint down too fast, miscount and mentally arrive at the dodge a blow later than she should? — John Harrison

One problem I've seen is that people can be adamant that they are counting places but what they are actually counting is pulls, pulls that don't actually correspond to places. I think standing with them and doing what what John suggests might help?

I think it all depends how far gone they are. Ours got pretty disgusting due to the hand gel used during COVID. I clean ours with warm water and a tiny drop of washing up liquid, if they are really bad by briefly dunking them in the water, otherwise just wiping them repeatedly with a cloth. If necessary, I've used a soft nailbrush to get the gunk out from between the strands. The key thing it to be gentle and patient, you may have to go over them repeatedly - you'll need to rehydrate the goop to get it off. And they will take a considerable time to dry out afterwards.

Here's what Avon Ropes say, which is basically the same thing:

Hemp and Flax are textiles, we would suggest you can use some weak washing liquid/powder and wash them in some warm soapy water for a short period of time which will remove most dirt, you can use a scrubbing brush, but try to keep the time they're wet for as short as possible. We will suggest you allow the ropes to drip dry in a warm room or laid on a radiator. You will notice the natural fibre tail ends get looser and may never return to your original stiffness, even when re-acclimatised within the tower. We suggest you do not get the rope near the sally, or get the sally wet.

We will add a disclaimer to this that Avon Ropes Ltd accept no liability for this advice. Each tower is different, the rope fibres are at different ages and have had different conditions through their life, so anyone washing bell ropes does so at their own risk.