Ringing Forums

Take a look at this map from Dove, showing the locations of simulators. Some pretty major gaps, even in the major metropolises where they could have a large customer base. — Tristan Lockheart

I'd be a little cautious about reading too much into that map - I know of at least 3 towers in the Greater Manchester area that have simulators and aren't on the map.

Getting towers to respond is enough of a task in itself ... it needs to be strongly supported by local officials or 'big names' — Tristan Lockheart

I think it's worth pointing out that towers can be "off the grid", for decades nobody at my home tower was in the association so we were unreachable. Even now there are only 3 of us. Without including those sorts of towers, any survey is going to be misleading - and sorry, no I don't know how you solve that problem! :grin:

the three broad attitudes I have experienced are... — Tristan Lockheart

I think your three categories are pretty accurate - at one of the towers I ring at a QP is a non-event, if only 6 turn up we'll probably ring a QP and clear off to the pub early, so it's a 1. For my home tower, as far as we can make out, it is 40+ years since the tower band could ring methods, and there are no QPs in bellboard by the tower band, so it's a 3. And I've rung in another tower in the area where it's a 2.

You have to be in the right area and in with the right crowd to get into QPs and peals... — Tristan Lockheart

I think that's right, and I've heard exact same comment from people at surprise major level in this area, so I think it's probably a mostly geographical issue.

lack of quarter peal opportunities as a barrier to completing the higher (4 and 5) levels of ART — Simon Linford

That's right, but it is a deeper issue than just getting a band together for a QP. At my level the first time you ring a QP of a new method is a challenge, one that you need regular practice for. That requires more from helpers than an one-off commitment to turn up for a QP. I've had kind people offer to arrange QPs for me, but unless I'm at the point where there's a reasonable chance of me getting through it, I really don't feel it would be right to take up the offer.

Interestingly, Surprise Minor/Major practices have popped up in two of the associations I ring in, but, as far as I can tell, although they have been advertised by the associations, neither of them have been arranged by them. It remains to be seen if they can be sustained, there's just about enough people at one of them to make it viable. It's also worth noting that without endless clanking away on our tower sim on my own during COVID I would still be at the PBD level, unable to take advantage of either of those opportunities, and there's not much in the area to bridge that gap.

Is the Median Ringer's No Peals in any way surprising? — PeterScott

Speaking as a Median Ringer, I would be astonished if that wasn't the case.

I have admiration for the skill, focus and dedication of those who ring peals. Having talked to peal ringers I understand the attraction for those who ring them, but personally I have no interest in ever ringing one. And I suspect that's the Median view.

people from our tower have recently started going to the monthly plain methods sessions at the Derbyshire one, but from looking at their calendar, the main users seem to be the resident band.

We will need to take care not to exclude people from learning because they can't afford it. We would not want to end up spending large amounts of time teaching people who have lots of spare cash but making little progress while not teaching those with exceptional potential who don't, would we? — A J Barnfield

Yes, but there are ways around that - as I understand it, some associations offered support for the recent NW Ringing course in the form of bursaries. One youth arts project I'm aware of requires that people apply and selection is based on potential. If applicants are accepted then the majority of the costs, which include a residential element, are covered.

Some background info on costing of volunteer time, taken from the Heritage Lottery website, which we followed for our bid:

We use a standard rate to calculate the value of your volunteer time:

• professional volunteer (for example, accountancy or teaching): £50 per hour
• skilled volunteer (for example, leading a guided walk): £20 per hour
• volunteer (for example, administrative work): £10 per hour

When we went to their funding workshop they also made it very clear that they were in the business of supporting people working in the heritage sector, not keeping them in penury. Any costings for non-volunteer services had to be realistic, and if they weren't the bid would be rejected.

I also came across a salary guidance document from the organisation representing professional archivists, the recommendation for a director level role was ~£60k p.a.

There is some more detailed and interesting information on the Arts Marketing Association website, the salary for a director level role was £40k+ and for CEO £50k+, although salaries tend to vary widely based on the size of the organisation.

I'm sure there are lots of other similar documents, these were just the first ones I found, but they suggest that the "going rate" for a paid head of the CCCBR would be in the £50k - £60k p.a. range.

to access PealBase, you must have rung at least one peal. — Nick Lawrence

I haven't rung any at all and I have access...

:rofl:

Is there an amount that's large enough? It's a labour of love, surely? :wink: :lol:

And providing paid for lessons, using simulators, as well. An interesting model, one to watch for sure.

http://bellsofstclements.scy.org.uk/index.php/learn-to-ring/learning-at-st-clements

and I was exactly the same, but this isn't about you or me, it's about why:

Many ringers are only interested in ringing at their own towers and do not want to progress, let alone improve. — Sue Marsden

I think it's unlikely that anyone takes up ringing with the aim of becoming a poor ringer and resolutely staying that way, yet the consensus seems to be that's a significant problem. Why is that happening? I'm sure there's neither a simple answer or a simple solution, but clearly it's something that needs fixing, and urgently.

Indeed it is, and what I said is more complex than "experienced ringers and societies are all bad".

you mean a session where people can each ring with a simulator — John Harrison

Yes, but not exclusively. I've also been to quite a number of half/full day training sessions where the simulator is used for sound control, and there's homework in advance.

I question the assumption that the organisation won't change but the members would if given the chance. That doesn't fit our experience. — John Harrison

Your experience doesn't match what I see in the four different associations that I ring in. I accept that the picture is not the same everywhere, but I don't think we should downplay the seriousness of the problems ringing faces in some areas just because it's not universal.

Agreed it's difficult to reach towers that have been in stasis for many years, but if we can't engage with and motivate existing ringers, what makes us believe we'll be successful with non ringers? And more to the point, why did those towers end up that way in the first place?

This discussion seems to be going down the path of blaming everything on a nonexistent caricature of ringing. — John Harrison

Or it could be going down the path of people in areas where things are relatively OK not really understanding how bad they are in some other areas?

If someone wants to ring for the Coronation where are they going to learn? — A J Barnfield

The press release tells people to contact ART:

https://www.englishcathedrals.co.uk/latest-news/ring-for-the-king/

We generally know exactly who will turn up - usually the committee members plus a few other long time ringers ... I have never actually witnessed learners being humiliated at meetings. ... You might think this is 'humiliating' but I think that it is good for less experienced ringers to hear better ringing so they know what they can aim for — Sue Marsden

I fully believe that nobody tries to directly humiliate ringers at branch practices but it's not about how you or other branch committee members see things from your side, it's about how less experienced ringers see if from theirs. I can assure you that many ringers in the lower ranks don't participate at branch practices because they find them very intimidating, even if that isn't the intention. "Hearing better ringing" can be a huge demotivator if it appears to be unachievable - it needs to be accompanied with "And here is how you get there", which is seldom the case.

But a number of ringers at some towers make it quite clear that they are only interested in ringing at their own tower and are happy with the level they are at. — Sue Marsden

Yes, my home tower has been one of those for the past 40+ years. And it's recently changed, the band are now ringing simple methods and have even arranged an outing to ring at other towers. That change has been brought about internally, by a couple of us who have rung elsewhere telling the others "If I can progress, so can you". The first time we rang a simple minimus method as a band had an electrifying effect, because after that people believed moving forwards together was not an unachievable pipe dream.

I know that some towers really are stuck in the mud, but how many others are there like ours who don't believe things could ever improve? I think it's great that ringing for the Coronation is being promoted, but who is going to train the recruits and how many are going to get beyond Rs&CCs? Of course PR about ringing and training is necessary, but I think a good proportion of it needs to be directed at existing ringers, otherwise we aren't going to fix the current problems, we are just going to produce another tranche of ringers with the same issues that we already have,

The long term ringers in my district are desperately trying to give up office in favour of the newer recruits, with very limited success. — Sue Marsden

What have they done about that? Have they actually considered why newer recruits aren't interested, rather than just bemoaning that they aren't?

District practices are aimed at learners and improvers so they can get to ring things they cannot in their own tower, but attendance is still low. ... However the training sessions at the Teaching centre using the simulator seem popular. — Sue Marsden

There's a very clear disconnect there. It's not that there's no demand for training, it's that the "traditional" style of training is no longer fit for purpose. If I turn up at a district practice I have no idea who will be there, how many people there will be there or what level they be ringing at. I might get a chance to ring with some more experienced and kindly ringers who would support and encourage me, I might get thrown in out of my depth and crash out, I might get a bunch of top rank shouters or I might be the best ringer there. There's simply no way of knowing. On the other hand if I go to a simulator practice the content is pretty certain to be advertised in advance and I can decide if it's right for me.

I don't ever go to branch practices as all the ones I've been to are a waste of time. I've been to far more simulator practices, because they fill a need. And the success of the various residential ringing courses is more proof that there is a demand for quality, targeted training.

Many ringers are only interested in ringing at their own towers and do not want to progress, let alone improve. — Sue Marsden

No, many towers and ringers have been led to believe that they aren't capable of progressing any further either collectively or individually, and their experience of the "outside" at events such as branch practices had been humiliating and demotivating, so they stay where they aren't made to feel inadequate and where they can enjoy themselves, at whatever level they are at.

If what you are doing clearly isn't working than the sensible thing is to take a step back, ask why and try another course. But in my experience, that isn't what most associations do, they keep doing the same irrelevant things over and over and then complain about people not being interested.

Because posts in societies are dominated by long term ringers, there is also a fixation on peals, striking competitions and business meetings, which appeal to a minority. — Roger Booth

Which seems to have been the case for many decades:

The Whiting Society was founded in 1968, and takes its name from its founding father, Arthur Whiting (1908-1975), who was a ringer at All Saints, Marple, Cheshire. Arthur was frustrated with the boring and seemingly interminable business meetings of the Chester Diocesan Guild at that time, which not infrequently overran into, and sometimes wiped out, the time allocated to evening ringing. He determined to form a group dedicated to making ringing enjoyable and actually getting on with it, rather than debate and discussion.

Clearly it isn't the same set of people running things now, but the same modus operandi is still in place 50 years on - I'm a member of the CDG and I receive emails about the same events - except now the majority are about cancellations due to lack of numbers.

About The Whiting Society of Ringers

If only those who cling on and try to do everything themselves would learn to let go, it would make a huge difference. There are lots of talented people out there who could step in, they just need encouragement. They may make mistakes at first, and they may try new ideas, but in the longer term as more people are contributing, the workload for individuals will be less, not more. — Roger Booth

Most of my ringing friends who have stepped up and tried to contribute at association level have eventually given up in frustration. Why would recent recruits have any interest in propping up an obsolete Victorian leftover when most of what does happen of any note in ringing happens despite the associations and not because of them?

I'm pretty sure that a lot of people are awake on this one and have been for some time. It's just that the existing culture is very good at reinforcing itself, and is averse to change. — Roger Booth

It's the only thing it is good at. In particular, if the current associations crumble, good riddance. They have long passed their sell by date.

I think you make some good points there. I certainly felt like a bit of an impostor when I started teaching as I was (and still am) actively learning myself. What made it easier was encouragement from the person who taught me, and the knowledge that if I didn't step up, there wasn't anyone else to do it for our tower. I think that rolls over to you second point - any marketing effort needs to include an internal component, there's not much point recruiting new ringers if we can't train them up to whatever level of achievement they are interested in / capable of, and in the short term at least, those trainers are going to have to come from the existing ringing community.