Ringing Forums

That makes it a worthwhile proposition!

The last time that I heard any figures there had been a very full and very well organised day laid on and the total income, before expenses, was marginally over £1,000.

I agree with the comments made by Paul and Alison about the excellent organisation of the W&P open day.

It was a long day for most of us and was extremely well attended, something that I have to say I have not found on many open days these last few years, more on the level that was found on those I attended in the early 1970s.

What I am inclined to wonder, as a Guild Master who has previously suggested similar in my own Guild and not found any support, is how much the open day brought in. I know that it has brought a large amount of publicity among the ringing fraternity for the cause (the restoration of the lovely Gillett and Johnson six at Ropley after the devastating fire) and that it generated a tremendous amount of work for the many marshalls (who did an excellent job, almost all of them in several towers) but the bottom line for the organisers has got to be financial gain for their perposes as well as contributing to the ticks in the Dove's of various people who have traveled from many miles away and who will not likely be returning soon.

Was the whole event worthwhile from Ropley and the W&P's point of view?

I ask the question as a suggestion has been made by another member of our Guild Management Committee that we should organise an open day to benefit our BRF. Whilst I am delighted to have an aly in my campaign to hold an open day, and it appears that it has gained enough support that it will take place, that extra information will be useful to inform doubters.

A moot point! I rather like both before and after.

Whilst Whitechapel did a fantastic job augmenting our poorly tuned 8 at Bromyard (and we have recordings to prove it) it would have been nice to have a recording of the old 6 before Taylors got at them as well.

As with any completed project, our perception of them before the work is done may well have been coloured by the way that they went as much as it was by their sound, not least influenced by those encouraging us to undertake the work.

For our own satisfaction and for future historians I think that it should be a condition of any faculty to retune bells that they should be recorded for posterity both before and after tuning.

Wasn't it much easier in the 'good old days' when there was no rope, no hand rail, nothing. Then you ran your hand on the centre column of the stairs in total safety, in exactly the same way as previous ringers had for centuries before H&S was invented?

I have a copy of Campanalogia (1677) which also mentions in detail, on pages 23 to 25, the handstroke gap. I won't try to repeat all of it, but it sums it up at the start:-

"A prospect of true ringing at any certain compass under the sett may thus be taken; for instance, in ringing a peal of 5 bells; from the fore-stroke of every note to the next fore-stroke of the same note, there ought to be eleven punctums or Beats of Time, which are all supposed to stand at equidistances: now in ten of these punctums, the five notes ought exactly to strike at the fore-stroke and back-stroke, and the eleventh stands as a cypher to guide the treble-note at fore-stroke to a double proportion of time from the tenor-note at back-stroke: which blank punctum must also be beaten in the same place by every note, to render its fore-stroke answerable to that of the treble".

If this was in print as early as that, I think it fair to say that, certainly for change ringing, the handstroke gap has been there from the very start.

Too much for tax purposes?

The current regulations regarding self-employment are, as I understand it in the case of one of my businesses, that if the income of the business is less than £1,000 per annum it does not need to be declared - which is why there is not any interest from HMRC in the fees paid to us for the odd occasions on which we receive them.

I would be interested to hear a view from HMRC as to whether they would really want to know about it if we should exceed that income figure. Technically we would have to produce an annual income and expenditure figure which would show our only income as the wedding fees, etc. received. On the other side of the account we would have to declare ALL of the expensditure that we had incurred in the course of our bellringing: travel to our professional ringing (weddings, etc) and training (practice nights and guild/association meetings) at their allowed rate of 45p per mile, our professional affiliations (guild/association membership subs), the tower fund donations that we make at practice nights and so on.

Whilst this may not take a tremendous lot of effort on our part, merely a cash book which we would add up at the end of each year, the fact that, almost inevitably, we would ALL be showing a loss on the books at the end of the year would mean that bell ringing could very easily reduce our personal taxation burden rather than increase it.

Incidentally, I have heard figures of over £150 per guest being charged by reception venues. Many towers are embarrassed to ask that much for a team of ringers for their services ringing both before and after a wedding. We need to put a realistic market value on the services that we are offering!

Whilst I don't mind ringing for somebody's wedding for £20, if I have nothing better to do, the money barely covers the cost of fuel and the National Minimum Wage of £10 per hour, or whatever it is.
Ringing for a wedding totally destroys any chances of doing anything else with the day, especially when it is before and after AND the bride chooses to be 'fashionably' late.
When we take a look at the money that the 'happy couple' are blowing on wedding dresses and bridal cars, which are never under £1,000 each and for the benefit of their special day, I think that we need to remember that they are asking 6 or more total strangers to give their skilled services on a, usually, Saturday afternoon when they could be enjoying family activities or a day or two away. Why pay over £1,000 for the car to take them to the wedding and to the reception with only one driver and expect a whole team of highly trained ringers to offer their services for a fraction of that cost?
I have no idea what we should be paid, but compared to what they happily pay for other services I think that offering £20 for ringing before and after, as is often the case is an gross under-valuation to the band that have been asked to ring.
This is one of those issues that does really need to have some serious thought put into it, maybe by the CCCBR, and some general guidelines of what is considered reasonable in terms of reimbursement for ringers' time and expense would be very helpful.
To start the ball rolling how about a suggestion:-
£50 to the tower funds plus
£40 per rope
If before and after ringing, add £30
Ringing for 30 minutes before the SCHEDULED time of the service, then stop (whether the bride has arrived or not)
Allow 30 minutes for the service (or whatever length of time the minister estimates) then ringing will recommence for 30 minutes. Then we go home.
If that is all made clear to the couple before the event they will have no grounds to be put out if the ringing is not timed exactly as they want it and the ringers can plan THEIR day.
I know that a big increase in what has been charged in most towers of late, but what does a set of ropes, or a rehang cost? What is the cost of living doing? How much have they just paid for an over-priced, tarted-up sponge cake?

In my experience over the last 60 years I can only think of one tower where I regularly ring that has held an AGM and nominated a Tower Captain to the Vicar, and that is a recent development. ALL of the other towers have had a Tower Captain appointed by the Incumbent or the PCC.
If we were unhappy with the Tower Captain, a quiet word, a few of us moving to ring in another tower and a willing volunteer was usually enough to persuade him to step down without any public show-downs at a tower AGM.

I don't know when he stopped working on handbells, or even when he died, but what about Frank Barnett, of Leigh Sinton, if you think that there is a Worcestershire connection? He was quite a prolific restorer of handbells, but, if my memory of 45 - 50 years ago serves me right, I think that he used light coloured leathers and the bells that he restored were always polished to 'as new' condition. Those in the photograph certainly would not be in Frank's finished state, more like his 'coming in' one.