Ringing Forums

Thanks John, that's good to know. So suppose a CC rep has an idea, but can't get the relevant committee interested in it. Can they stand up at the annual meeting and say "I think we should do xyz"? That would be my test for democracy.

Well yes, one might reasonably think that. But then suppose one has an idea, goes to the relevant committee, is unable to get them interested, idea is stymied. What does one do then? If there is some measure of direct democracy then one has at some point a chance to stand up and impart one's idea to the whole group directly. To me that freedom is essential.

My view is that what makes an organisation democratic is "Can an individual's voice be heard?". So from what Simon says - yes, it is less democratic in that individuals get fewer chances to make their voices heard. Personally I don't mind, but if I were a council member then I probably would mind because I would get less chance to shape policy directly..

John de Overa, you are very right that progress is a case of "not what you know, but who you know". I was lucky in that my teacher introduced me to very good ringers who were willing to put up with me and give me a chance. But it shouldn't depend on that. I know that this is exactly what the CC is trying to address with its new NW ringing course.

Yes that would be a good idea, John. Although I think the CC might say "we are here to organise; we can't be the do-ers as well".
Um, this is awfully naff, but what about a rosette/badge for every ringer in the country? Like "I rang for KCIII Coronation". With "CCCBR" around the edge. To be delivered with big fanfare about what the CC has been doing (which I know it has, so would be absolutely true).

I would say that the problem is that the Central Council is not "seen" at all by the majority of ringers. I don't think they are enough aware of it to care in the least whether or not it is democratic.
Occasionally I try to tell my band about CC work. But my impression is that, by the time I have uttered the mouthful "Central Council of Church Bell Ringers", they have logged it as "not interesting" and switched off.
So I would say, Central Council, keep up your great work, but you need to do something that makes you visible (or maybe audible?) to every single ringer in the country!

I had a quick look at the package, as this post intrigued me. I did not like the sound of iKnowChurch at all. It seemed very controlling and invasive of privacy, e.g. "have oversight of your church people", "ensure no church visitor or member goes unnoticed", "Centralise all your church communication".

Thanks John. Simon - happy to make a donation to whatever you wish in exchange for being allowed to download John's conversion. Just lmk.

Roger Booth, of course your points are very sensible. But - here's a fairy story about a four-bell tower with a happy ending!
At the Millennium, the PCC of All Saints' Landbeach decided to restart ringing. The Ely Diocesan Association stepped up to provide teachers and training courses. And oodles of support, which has continued until the present day.
In the succeeding years, both church and band had their difficulties but hung on in there.
In 2022, both church and band are growing and enthusiastic (and solvent) and the PCC have decided to augment to six. Yippee! Church and band are looking forward to the future with enthusiasm.
So my point is - vision and drive are found in sometimes unlikely places, so don't write anywhere off!

I agree that this is desirable, Nigel.
I have tried to teach plain hunt before call changes, by the route that you suggest, but have always ended up focussing on call changes, because the student needed to know them in order to ring with others.
I would say that the best order depends on the student's aptitudes. Yes, some students find call changes difficult and plain hunt easy and in that case by all means teach them plain hunt first. But some students struggle to think quickly enough to count and remember places in plain hunt, so for them I think it is kinder to let them first take as much time as they need to get good at call changes.

Thank you folks for these useful ideas.

Thanks John.

Indeed, I could not disagree with that.

Sorry if this sounds smart-arse, but I think it would be more useful to ask how much "ringing intelligence" ringers have, rather than what they can ring. I mean - can they use ropesight, listening, rhythm in such a way that, while ringing, they have a reasonable perception of what is going on within the method (or even call changes) and where they fit into it. Thus ensuring that they ring whatever it is well.
My point is that, if you have a good memory, it is easy to reel off a complicated blue line without having a clue what is going on around you. (Guess how I know!) Which does not produce really good ringing.
So I would say that someone who rings Grandsire intelligently is contributing more to the future of the Exercise than someone who crams the blue lines necessary to ring 23-spliced and then promptly forgets them all.

Thank you Philip Pratt, that is very helpful.

Sorry to be an incurable optimist, but I really don't think it's a problem. Clever people always crop up who will re-invent things. After all, method ringing had to be invented in the first place. So say maybe in 100 years time there is nothing but a few aged bands ringing call changes. Then some maverick youth will say "What if we joined all the changes up and rang them all at once? Bet no-one's ever done that before!". And change ringing will be reborn.

Is there a way to "Like" a message? If not, could there be? That would be a nice way of showing appreciation for a helpful comment.

We're marking it, Cathy, at my tower and 3 neighbouring towers I persuaded to join in. With a Festival of Ringing advertised in our village newsletter. The reason being simply that it's publicity for us (as we desperately need to recruit).

Hello Oliver, it's easy-peasy. If you have ever organised any outing whatsoever for self and friends then you can do this too.
Here's what I did my first time -
I picked an area fairly nearby, that I had already visited as a tourist, so I knew it slightly.
I picked towers that sounded, from the information I could glean, as if they fitted the abilities / interests of my band. Preferably ones that had some added attraction, e.g. cafe, views, interesting woodwork.
I picked a lunch venue in a popular tourist spot, so ringers' non-ringing families could spend the day there.
First and last towers were chosen to require fewer ringers. "Plum" tower was just before lunch. After-lunch tower was easy bells.
I then drove to the area myself, drove from tower to tower, writing down directions and times (Yes, on paper; this was in the dark ages!)
All went well. The experienced members of the band will look after you if any problems arise.
CHECK THE DAY BEFORE THAT EACH PERSON WHO SHOULD LET YOU IN HAS REMEMBERED. I once didn't - arrgh!
Good luck and have fun!
Barbara

I would like this too for my tower at All Saints' Landbeach, Cambs.