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It also showed that the number of handbell peal ringers is also gradually increasing, with no apparent drop during or after Covid: 2019-313, 2020-318, 2021-323, 2022-327. Only three years have ever been higher: 1982-343, 1972-389, 1971:335.

Lots of statistics and charts showing the decline in peal ringing since about 1980. The only charts which are showing an increase are the average number of peals per peal ringer, the average age of peal ringers, and the percentage of peal ringers who only ring one. — Simon Linford

Well, from the sound of those statistics, it seems to me like peal ringing is becoming more concentrated amongst a shrinking pool of people. Of course, this means that there are fewer opportunities to progress into peal ringing, worsening the cycle. However, a fair few university societies have avid peal ringers in their number, sometimes enough for an entirely resident band. So all is not lost (yet).

So the big question is, does it matter? — Simon Linford

What do you get out of ringing peals? What does the exercise get out of peal ringing? (these are questions for the whole class :D)

If, say, it is the notion of an extended performance or acquiring the skills needed to ring continuously for a longer period of time, is that already covered by QPs?

Year PealRingers
2013 2,723
2014 2,529
2015 2,925
2016 2,497
2017 2,404
2018 2,363
2019 2,273
...
2022 1,958 — AndrewCraddock RW p100 3Feb2023

Yes, the Number of Tower-bell peal ringers has had a constant decline since a peak of about 5,000 in the exceptional year of 1977. Continuing the rate of decline of 2013-19 to 2022 would, without the AccursedVirus, have reached 2,075 The recorded number was 117 fewer. Resuming the trend to 2030 would leave about 1,550 peal ringers by that date.

...does it matter? — Simon Linford

To help answer that, it would be fascinating to have a 'level of complexity' axis to the analysis ...

I extrapolated the chart of the decline in peal ringing and peal ringing finishes in 2050! Which is about when i expect to give up anyway.

I extrapolated the chart of the decline in peal ringing and peal ringing finishes in 2050 — Simon Linford

How did you extrapolate? Linear extrapolation to zero is unlikely to be reliable, even if 'the same' conditions prevail.

Linear extrapolation to zero is unlikely to be reliable — John Harrison

Yes, that last year with just the three peal ringers could be a bit dull ...

The coronation will be an interesting opportunity to see how many peals might be rung in a year, given a very good reason to ring. Maybe this will encourage people to ring their first peal, or their first peal for years.
Potentially a decline in peal ringing fits with many things in life which are becoming shorter, faster experiences as everyone is busy and / or has shorter attention spans.
Perhaps we need a focus, alongside the ring for the king campaign to ring every bell, on encouraging people to ring a peal and sharing how this can be prepared for and most manageable - practice quarters beforehand, extents or lengths of different methods to keep it interesting, a chance to request a conductor for a band which may not have anyone experienced to conduct a peal for them?

Is it possible that with an ageing demographic full peals are getting beyond the physical limits of some people? I do note the rise in handbell peals which can be performed sitting down.

Generally I don't think so. Some of the most prolific peal bands at the moment are all people in their 70s. There is a demographic blip there in terms of people who have been able to retire on time or early on good final salary pensions and in good health who are able to do lots of peal ringing. I don't think following generations are going to have that luxury and that will also impact peal ringing.

I'm not optimistic about ringing for the Coronation.
When we really pushed peal ringing in 2015 we got a big increase in first peals, but it was just a blip, not sustained.
Also, when we last had a 'recruit to ring every bell' event in 2000, the resultant influx was perceived to have lower aspirations and ability on average than the normal run of recruits, so not mostly budding peal ringers. And the focus on a single day led some recruits to feel they'd done their bit when it was over.
It would be nice to think this time will be different, but it's not clear what will make it so.

I think "pushing peals" is flogging a dead horse. I'm sure some people will still ring them, including a small proportion of "newbies" but none of my cohort (recent-ish starters) are interested, and indeed most of the long-timers of my acquaintance who have rung them in the past aren't interested any longer. I can think of only one person who still rings peals, but they've been unable to persuade me of why anyone would bother.

QPs however are a different matter - I think I'd get far more out of ringing 4 QPs than I would of ringing one full peal.

I'd love to hear what the benefits are, other than bragging rights and masochism?

I think of peal ringing as like playing test cricket, a long term test of technique, concentration and skill. Not for everyone though.

I have tried ringing a peal, it fell over after an hour and ten minutes, but I’m game for another just ‘because it’s there’.

I'd love to hear what the benefits [of peal ringing] are, other than bragging rights and masochism? — John de Overa

... which can be rephrased less perjoratively as

• the challenge of the performance
• the teamwork to achieve it
• the reporting of the performance for contemporaries and for future generations.

My progress through the peal ringing labrynth is in my profile from which it's clear I'm not a massive fan of the tradition. However to these benefits of pealringing, I would add

• the mathematical elegance of composing and then ringing each and every possible Triples row exactly once.
• Matching the heritage and tradition that used to justify all that expense of gold leaf on ringing-chamber peal boards.
• Giving a name to something new, as part of a commemorative performance

And, just for the record, the mathematical elegance of the challenge of Triples is one thing that the Framework did abandon in changing the rules: it allowed a band to miss out forty changes (3.I.6) and still be a peal, or indeed add on forty changes (or a hundred and forty ...) (3.J.5) and it still be a true peal. (_sigh_)

thanks, that's similar to the list I came up with. I can see the appeal (pun intended) for composers & conductors, but for others the benefits seem marginal at best, and I think difficult to justify when compared to QPs. Although some people clearly enjoy being a "rank and file" peal ringer, I think the importance of peal ringing is a difficult pitch to recent starters, although of course it will be attractive to some of them.

I have heard people claim that the striking in a peal only really gets good after the first couple of hours (!). If true then perhaps it would be better to work on striking well from the start of all performances?

The original question was if the decline in peal ringing mattered. If the definition of "what matters" is the overall participation levels in ringing, and the standard of what's rung, perhaps the answer is "No, not really"?

p.s. I thought you only had to ring a QP to name a method, or are you referring to the naming the peal composition rather than the method(s)?

Although my peal total is very modest, and has not increased for quite a few years, the very best ringing I have been in has usually been somewhere past a quarter of the way through peals, when band, method and bells just "gel".

I'd have thought the main reason to ring a peal would be in the devising of a new complex method, and in devising a suitable composition in it.
It is, of course, not a statutory matter to publish the fact of a successful peal, nor to advertise it in the first place. Though I never kept records of peals I was in beyond the first few years, I'm not sure I could recall if any were not published. That aspect of it never seemed to matter.

"I'd love to hear what the benefits are, other than bragging rights and masochism?"

When I asked a similar question in about 2013, I was told very simply, that it would take my ringing to the next level. I rang my first 3 peals in 2015 and they definitely helped me to progress. Talk to the sort of ringer who can ring a decent repertoire without any mistakes, and you are probably talking to a peal ringer. Building the sort of mental and physical fitness required to ring a peal (or many peals) is very good discipline for a ringer, just as training for marathons is good for amateur runners.
So yes, the decline in Peal ringing will probably cause a significant decline in the number of ringers who are very good. It takes 10,000 hours to make a good musician and I would suggest it is no different with ringing. Getting 3 hours in one go is a pretty good way of inching towards those elusive higher levels.
Is it the same as ringing 4 quarters in one day? No, it's different. A marathon is different from 4 sprints.
So John, if you are offered a rope in a peal and you are fit enough to do it, I would encourage you to say yes!

That's a very good answer. I have been thinking about how to answer my own question since asking it.

It is difficult to understand the attraction of peal ringing until you've rung quite a few. The best and most challenging ringing I do is in peals, because most of the best ringers I ring with also ring peals for the same reason. Peal ringing does improve the ringing of most of those who do it. That said, there are established bands who enjoy quarter peal ringing for the same reason - because they get good ringing. I was at AJB's funeral on Tuesday and he loved his QP ringing and rang about 3500. So that was probably when he got his best ringing.

An aspect of peal ringing that has not yet been mentioned is the exploration of composition that is not possible in smaller lengths, but this is particularly for more difficult stuff and on more bells. There isn't really a quarter peal equivalent of the challenge and beauty of ringing 147 minor, 23 spliced, Cyclic Spliced Maximus, and the ringing tends to get better the harder you make it because the ringers are more experienced. The analogy with Test Cricket over shorter forms of the game was good, but I would also draw an analogy with the Symphony over shorter pieces of music - a Symphony gives you time and scope to explore far more. 3000 changes would probably be enough though, and although I have put forward the idea of 3000 being a good target, I have yet to had the courage to organise one.

So on to whether the drop in peal ringing matters or not. At the moment there is a body of ringers ringing a lot of peals together who have retired early in good health and with good pensions. That is the group who are particularly causing there to be a greater concentration of peals rung by a smaller number of ringers. That will work its way out of the system and the peal numbers will drop, but that in itself will not make much difference because that ringing is not putting much back (generally). It is people who like ringing together doing so because they can. That generation will not happen again until something fundamental changes.

We have definitely passed 'peak peal' - future generations are unlikely to ring as many, but it I don't think it will fall away catastrophically, particularly because the children of ringers will be brought up wanting to do it and they will encourage others.

So John, if you are offered a rope in a peal and you are fit enough to do it, I would encourage you to say yes! — Rosalind Martin

I can't ever see that happening to be honest - even QP opportunities are infrequent and I've had quite enough after 45 mins anyway - the physical side isn't an issue, it's a mixture of boredom and not wanting to stuff it up as it get close to the end :lol: And as a late starter I don't think I'll realistically progress much beyond Minor ringing anyway.

The best and most challenging ringing I do is in peals, because most of the best ringers I ring with also ring peals for the same reason. — Simon Linford

The top level of peal ringing that you describe is impressive and it would be sad to see it become even more niche. Although I think it gets a publicity that's disproportionate to the number of participants, perhaps that's no bad thing as it is aspirational in the same way that the top level of any activity is.

that ringing is not putting much back (generally) — Simon Linford

I'm fortunate to ring regularly with people who's technical standard I am unlikely to ever approach, but what I've gained most from them is mindset and approach - perhaps that's something that can "be put back"? I see a lot of people at my level struggling to make progress and I think a big part of it is because of that?

"And as a late starter I don't think I'll realistically progress much beyond Minor ringing anyway.
" ... "A lot of people at my level struggling to make progress... "


I have come to believe it is a misconception to see progress in terms of which methods one can ring/score. Being good at ringing is not really about ringing impossibly difficult blue lines, or even engaging with blue lines at all. It is about creating a fluent, gorgeous rhythm with a ring of bells. I see people struggling to progress but it seems to me that they are struggling with the wrong issues. The key skill is striking, which is a combination of physical bell control, accurate listening and good teamwork. Working on these skills, like mastering any musical instrument, is a combination of practice and getting and implementing excellent feedback. I am (honestly) happy and proud to ring beautifully struck call changes. And the people who are best at that are.... (around here) the Peal Ringers.

My answer is "no, it does not matter that fewer peals are being rung by fewer, older people" - as long as ringers are busy doing other ringing things which they find interesting / enjoyable / helpful to others. In my experience, this is indeed the case - there is now a much broader range of opportunities to make your own contribution than there was 20 years ago, when I started ringing. I used to ring peals because there wasn't much else to do if you loved ringing, but now there are many more options.

The key skill is striking, which is a combination of physical bell control, accurate listening and good teamwork. — Rosalind Martin

Yes, and I'm sure the best ringers consider all of those to be a "work in progress" and never stop striving to improve them. I think how they do that are skills that could be transferred to less rarefied levels of ringing. Rather than focusing teaching Method X or Y, perhaps teaching "How to improve your ringing" is more important?

And the people who are best at that are.... (around here) the Peal Ringers. — Rosalind Martin

There are no peal ringers around here.

Talk to the sort of ringer who can ring a decent repertoire without any mistakes, and you are probably talking to a peal ringer. Building the sort of mental and physical fitness required to ring a peal (or many peals) is very go — Rosalind Martin

I'm sure there's a correlation but is there causation and if so which way? The obvious way is that extended periods of concentration in peals hones tingers' skills and makes them more competent ringers, But could it be the other way round, that only if you are competent can you relax enough to last a peal, and ring well enough to get the reward from ringing needed to make up for the time and effort spent?

. Getting 3 hours in one go ... Is it the same as ringing 4 quarters in one day — Rosalind Martin

No, because if you misjudge the clothing/temperature you have to suffer much longer in a peal!

that only if you are competent can you relax enough to last a peal, — John Harrison

or indeed only if you are competent are you likely to get asked into said peal

that's true of course, but in local band peals the dynamic can be the other way, with people who could ring, and have done so in the past, declining to do so.

I regularly ring at a few towers (my own has no peal boards at all!) and also tend to get out and about locally at various events, and looking at the boards for the last 30 years you'd be hard pushed to find a quarter, let alone a full peal that didn't feature at least one of a handful of names, many of them being made up entirely (or at least the inside ringers) of that group.

Not that it's a bad thing (they enjoy it, and good luck to them, they are a group made up of some of the best ringers I've met), and there are a few under 50s that are regular participants, but I've certainly not had or overheard any conversations of people "looking forward" to being able to ring their first peal.

Maybe one day I'll do one, but it certainly isn't a target, in the same way a quarter peal is, then more advanced quarters will be.

Would be interesting to see the % of peals rung by ringers who started ringing under 21 (regardless of how old they are now) and those who started as an adult with all the disadvantages that brings (I think they call it 'life getting in the way'!)

One despairs. If there is not the quest for advanced methods (used in practice through peals, and, crucially way from bells at all, i.e. construction, etc.) then how can the activity be properly sustained as a living art? Peals are the melting pot and the draw for advances.

In my present location, there is, it seems, nothing more than occasional quarter peals (of mainly <= 7). Quarter peals have always felt to me to be over before they have begun - and do not, in general, provide the aspiring ringer to enhance their striking, for example. Nothing to sustain the mind there - and even less to wish to attend a practice night with even lower standards.

Whilst I have been away from ringing it seems that there have been several augmentations to 12 or more. That is a stirring thought - but the level of local ringing seems totally to ignore the possibilities of advancement (in methods and in performance). 'Leaders' in these places appear utterly to be incapable of seizing the possibility of seeding aspiration in their bands - even if they themselves have a sense of such aspiration. A chasm appears to exist. Perhaps there is a line of demarcation between crashing about in 'practices' and more adequately demanding ringing. (Coupled to thiis is the deleterious effect of too much non-ringing in practices: ages spent sitting around doing nothing.)

[Personally, I've been thinking, recently, of resuming ringing - but it seems there would be no point.]

One despairs. If there is not the quest for advanced methods (used in practice through peals, and, crucially way from bells at all, i.e. construction, etc.) then how can the activity be properly sustained as a living art? Peals are the melting pot and the draw for advances.

In my present location, there is, it seems, nothing more than occasional quarter peals (of mainly <= 7). Quarter peals have always felt to me to be over before they have begun - and do not, in general, provide the aspiring ringer to enhance their striking, for example. Nothing to sustain the mind there - and even less to wish to attend a practice night with even lower standards.

Whilst I have been away from ringing it seems that there have been several augmentations to 12 or more. That is a stirring thought - but the level of local ringing seems totally to ignore the possibilities of advancement (in methods and in performance). 'Leaders' in these places appear utterly to be incapable of seizing the possibility of seeding aspiration in their bands - even if they themselves have a sense of such aspiration. A chasm appears to exist. Perhaps there is a line of demarcation between crashing about in 'practices' and more adequately demanding ringing. (Coupled to thiis is the deleterious effect of too much non-ringing in practices: ages spent sitting around doing nothing.)

[Personally, I've been thinking, recently, of resuming ringing - but it seems there would be no point.] — DRJA Dewar

Unless you resume ringing, there isn’t a chance to practice what you preach. Maybe there is local tower/guild/association that is crying out for someone with your skills?

However, try to be kind to us lesser ringers who are trying to claw their way up :)

Perhaps there is a line of demarcation between crashing about in 'practices' and more adequately demanding ringing. — DRJA Dewar

This is self fulfilling because more experienced ringers are less likely to support practices that are either badly run or feature bad ringing, which just makes them worse. The more experienced ringers focus on ringing with each other, and the elevator stops stopping on intermediate floors.

I had a conversation with my in-laws about whether it was always thus, and they said that it used to be the case that the great and the good of an association would be actively involved in the running of the association and ringing at practices. Now it is less common I think. I remember when I was learning that the best ringers and leading lights in the Stafford Archdeaconry Society did support Society practices, and I knew that if I went and impressed them then I might get asked into things (which did indeed happen). If the most experienced ringers in your area are not supporting local general practices then ask yourselves why not.

I think for practices at this level to work they have to be focused rather than general, and have to have experienced ringers specifically invited to go to them. We gave up general practices in the St Martin's Guild some time ago, and we now only have practices which are for specific purposes or for specific people, and the helpers are invited. A practice would not go ahead if there were insufficient experienced helpers. It is quite common to have very experienced ringers at such practices because they know they will be of value.