Ringing Forums

John - there was quite an extensive article in The Ringing World a few weeks ago. Have you seen that?

Yes John there is a lot of detial on it on the Covid guidance section of the Council website, inclduing now recommendations of good CO2 meters to use.

I have done quite a few tests myself which generally accord with what I would have expect - well ventilated ringing chambers not being a problem, and poorly ventilated ringing chambers being a problem.

I have had quite a bit of feedback from others as well, for instance from AJB last week, including from towers where the CO2 readings have been very high. What may be happening in response to very high readings is ringers deciding that the meter must be wrong, or that it doesn't really matter!

At one tower near me, Selly Oak, which is a small and unventilated ringing chamber, the reading went up to 1000 in one burst of wedding ringing.

Speaking as a keyboard warrior and not a qualified heating and ventilation engineer I don't think that absolute levels of CO2 are particularly the issue but more the rate of change. Might I suggest that if the rates are rising while we are in the RR then then ventilation is not adequate and if they are rising quickly then the ventilation is probably poor to near non existent.

I have not heard much talk about mechanical ventilation but plenty of talk about opening things to let natural air flow do the trick.

I guess (and it is only that) there are probably plenty of places where without mechanical ventilation the chances of getting adequate air flow are slim. Anyone have an informed view?

And for the winter when I point out that it might be a bit nippy with all the windows open the general response seems to be that we will just need to wrap up. I am far from sure.

I think we need to be looking and mechanical ventilation that warms the air. Just my guess. Any informed opinion on that?

We bought one to use at our tower. It was easy to use, and having carried out measurements helped to build confidence among ringers. It's also been used by a few other local towers. There are some notes on our website: https://sites.google.com/view/dccr/hardware/ventilation

Thank you for your post lan and the useful web page and interesting graphs. What are your thoughts about winter ringing?

I don't agree I'm afraid. The absolute CO2 level is important because that is a measure of the ventilation. For instance if during ringing your CO2 meter has gone to a steady state 400, then you have decent venitlation that is refreshing the air often enough to keep the CO2 level at 400, which is good. If the CO2 level in steady state is 1000 then that indicates that the ventilation is poor because the CO2 being generated by the band is only being matched by the removal of CO2 by fresh air.

OK. I'll go with that. If we are looking to have ventilation good enough to keep CO2 to background levels my guess is that a lot of towers will struggle, particularly on calm* days.

Anyone having a practice on Thursday or Friday evenings this week with all the windows open let us know how you get on.

*That is a calm wind, not calm ringers.

We tried one at Fridays practice with about 12 people in a reasonably sized ringing chamber with windows open on the North and South paces of the tower. Levers rose from about 400 ppm rising into the 900's by the end of the practice.

The results do however give me, and others, an excuse for making trips as quarters and peals progress, as a quick internet search on "co2 brain function" showed. This included the following link: https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200421/Atmospheric-CO2-levels-can-cause-cognitive-impairment.aspx

Fresh air for concentration is very noticeable if you ring long peals of things that are complicated. There's a very clear correlation between the number of trips and getting enough air into the room.

What is anyone's view on which specific CO2 meter to buy please? What is their availability, ease of use, effectiveness, cost etc for such monitors? Are they stand alone or do they need a laptop / phone or similar to present the results.

We have got some specific guidance on the Covid guidance section of the CC website. You need to scroll down about half the page though https://cccbr.org.uk/coronavirus/

I think I'll reorganise that page now!

Does anyone have experience of this one by Envisense? From the information online, it appears to operate stand alone, but may be connect to a PC to view the data more easily.

https://www.envisense.co.uk/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz8ahy-7s8wIVumDmCh37pws1EAAYAiAAEgK9M_D_BwE

This would be easier to take to towers and lend out as it would appear to operate independently of any other any other equipment or technology that people own.

With winter coming on and with mechanical ventilation systems probably proving to be expensive/noisy/difficult to install any thoughts on air filters?

AJ - there are better experts than myself but the type of filters required to remove virus is very expensive and would be simply uneconomic and not practical for churches (think of the labs that do such work and the filtration that they use). I think it must be woolly jumpers and keep ringing to keep warm!

I haven't got experience of that particular model but it uses NDIR so is likely to be accurate. It isn't wireless and nor is it battery powered, however, so needs either a laptop or a 5V USB power supply to work.

Our current tower monitor is battery operated but stores the data for one week and has Bluetooth. We keep an eye on it during ringing and then I download it once a week via my phone for analysis. It is an Aranet 4, available from Amazon. Slightly more expensive but the battery means it's extremely versatile.

Hi,
I've been looking into HEPA filters and the type required to remove virus particles don't seem to be too expensive. The most useful links I have found are
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/ventilation.html
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02669-2
The advice seems to be not to rely on HEPA filters as your only Covid mitigation (and CDC advises to take a 'layered' approach). From other reading, another key issue seems to be if virus particles would be removed before the point of inhalation (a HEPA filter on the far side of a large room may not help you as much). Also the HEPA filter needs to be powerful enough for the size of room you are using it in.
Interested in views

Given the obvious problems in many places with providing adequate warm air ventilation I wonder if this approach might be suitable?
It's been a bit cool this week. How has everyone been getting on with the windows open? From my very limited experience it has no been as bad as I thought it might. But there again I don't think it has been blowy and cold at the same time yet.

I am actually interested in the degree to which ringers are still wearing facemasks. Not meaning to be the guidance police or anything - I am just interested. We still wear facemaks at my home tower but then we have unvaccinated youngsters in the band. The other tower at which I ring regularly has no facemask (except my family!) From photos of bands in the Ringing World and elsewhere it seems that facemasks for ringing is in the minority now?

some do some don't. We are all vaccinated.

None of the practices/service ringing I go to ask ringers to wear masks. Usually large ringing rooms with ventillation. Only 1 or 2 ringers wear them for quarters, and no-one I ring with wears one for a peal. I don't actually go to any towers who insist on wearing a mask because I can't ring in one for more than a few minutes.

So how are ringers finding ringing in masks now? After climbing the stairs and ringing for approaching an hour for a carol service yesterday, my FFP2 mask was horribly soggy! I am sure it is not doing the intended job in that condition!

After an hour or an hour and a half practice fabric face-coverings are definitely soggy, in my limited experience. I have been to a few practices where I have worn a face covering, woolly hat and three top layers, including a fleece.
At one session I felt that my body and head were getting a bit too warm but my extremities were too cold. I think there might have been a risk of cracking, or mini-thunderstorms, at the interfaces.

Returning to the subject of CO2 monitors, I mentioned a while ago one by Envisense. I ordered and received one of these via Ventilationland, the UK supplier. https://www.envisense.co.uk/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA4b2MBhD2ARIsAIrcB-TLppN1iXS3B42KHvxE-VubT9xcZw4XSModDeb-Yf_8nLeZ3Mb26FMaAqtyEALw_wcB

It looks a nice little unit and did at first sight basically what I expected and wanted. The display shows CO2 levels over a period of an hour or 12 hours graphically on screen. Regrettably, the data I downloaded to a PC was only at hourly intervals. This meant that for a normal ringing session of an hour or so, there was only one data point, perhaps 2. I eventually made contact with the supplier and they told me that the data downloaded is only at hourly intervals; this is not much use for our purposes. Fortunately, I was able to return it and have received my money back.