Ringing Forums

There is no standard height for the sally from the floor. Sallies are generally checked when the bells are up so that the 'average' ringer can reach the middle to lower part of the sally with upraised arms. This can then be adjusted for preference.

That's what I thought John, but the ropes have been adjusted and personalised to each individual ringer and each ringer rings 'their bell' so it becomes difficult for other ringers and them to ring different bells. Most of them are below average height. I was hoping to use a standard to encourage them to change.. Thank you for your comment

A typical approach to avoid repeated changing of rope length is to have a few strong boxes available so that shorter ringers can stand on one of these with the rope adjusted for ringers who may be taller. Being short even relative to many fellow female ringers, I am more often than not looking round for a box before ringing. I even made a couple for a local tower where I ring occasionally so that I would have one to use when required!

I just made a unilateral decision to set the sallies so that the bottom of the sally is about level with my nose. I am 5'11". That seems to suit the shorter ringers, one or two of whom use a box anyway. We have one ringer who is well over 6' and he could do with the sallies being a good 6" higher but he tells me he is so used to being 'too tall' that it no longer worries him.

Thanks Tim, is that is when the bell is up or down? I'm guessing up?

I have found that some ringers don't like using boxes and have got used in the past to have their ropes adjust to them. It can get so personal this bell ringing! Thanks Alison

@Tim Farnham I had to laugh as I use exactly the same metric - nose height! I'm 5'10.

@Ron Sambridge I set them with the bells down as it would he hazardous to adjust with the bell up. However I find that the sally is at the same height regardless of whether the bell is up or down.

Thank you Mark I'm 6' in shoes so I'm going for the imperial nose height. I didn't realise the Sally is at the same height up or down. You have all been a great help, all I have to do is get it done!

I have always assessed the sally heights with the bell up as with different wheel sizes the position of the sally can be different depending on whether the bell is up or down. I just note 'Treble up 2", 4th down 1"' etc. and then make the adjustment with the bell down [of course]. It is a bit of a one-size-fits-all exercise sometimes as we have ringers ranging in height from 5' 1" to 6' 5" and the shortest and tallest people do have to adapt accordingly. I try to set the tail length as short as I can get away with so as to minimise knotting the rope, but we have two ringers who will always put in a knot because of their height. The shorter ringers tend to use boxes so that solves the problem of the sally being a little high.

I slightly off topic question, but related, is there a standard measure for the height (length) of a sally?

The height of the sally should be the same whether the bell is up or down. If not, the garter hole is in the wrong place.

That's an interesting question as to when ropemakers start to make sallies shorter for small bells and longer for big bells. They definitely do, but you don't tend to see shorter sallies until you get onto bells under about 5cwt. Is @Philip Pratt able to comment?

the pulley height has a bigger impact on it too. You need an arc of about 80 to 90 degrees that the rope moves between back stroke and hands stroke above the pulley box

A standard sally length is 3 feet and any shorter or longer are made at the request of the customer.
Bearing in mind that a new sally sat in a box and not used gets shorter and fatter, and could be an inch below the 3ft mark, plus over time and with use a 3ft sally ends up longer by about 3 to 4 inches.
Any sally that's not wound tight enough will be longer than the specified length, plus they tend to go hour glassed shape much quicker: A longer sally doesn't mean you've got better value.
Vice Versa is also true.

There is no standard for the sally heights, however, I use a number of 66" (1.68m) from the floor (when the bell is up) to the bottom of the sally, and only rising to 69" (1.75m) for bells around the 20cwt mark, with 72" (~1.8m) for bells from about 40cwt upwards which generally have 3ft6 long sallies.
I have worked these heights out over quite a few years, looking at where people catch the sally when ringing and setting sally heights to accomodate the band. The average height of your ringers should be catching the sally in the middle of the sally when ringing (not when pulling off, where they might be lower down the sally) which allows the taller, and shorter of the band to also have the use of the sally when ringing.

With regards to garter hole positions I have a spreadsheet that I've worked out pulley heights and garter hole positions if you're having the effect of hard work or a short handstroke pull on your bell and also having sallies at significantly different heights when the bells are down if you'd like a copy (PM me). The first thing to check is the height of the pulley box below the wheel, an awful lot of bells, the pulleys are too far away from the wheel which makes the handstroke pull hard work and has the same effect with sally heights as though the gater hole is in the wrong position. Once you've checked your bell has an ~85-degree angle of rope sweep above the pulley box, the garter hole position can then be considered. (Greater than 90degree sweep has issues with handling too). The garter hole should be at 90 degrees from a line from the centre top of the pulley box to the centre of the bearing, and out. A garter hole that's 4" out gives a sally that's 8" different in height between up and down. My spreadsheet works it out from the top dead centre of the wheel around to where it should be.

Please could I have a copy of your spreadsheet Philip.
Many thanks
Paul Tucker
Tower Captain St Tudy, Cornwall.

I've PM'd you

I would be interested in your spreadsheet please. I have been looking at several installations (old and new) and have found a wide range of both rope angle and also angle between garter hole, bearing and roller. There seems to be little consistency even within rings all hung at the same time! What do you consider the optimum and why?

the angle of sweep the rope passes through above the pulley box should be circa 82-90 degrees and this is irrespective of whether it's a single or double pulley. The radius the centre top of the pulley is away from the wheel is therefore constant for a given wheel diameter. The garter hole is out at 90 degrees from a chord drawn between the centre top of the pulley and the gudgeon and in theory could be in one of two locations (although it's nearly always in only one of the two).

Actually working out the angle of sweep of the rope is key, or the first step to working out whether the pulley height is too high or too low. Only once that's been confirmed and the angle of sweep being within the range suggested above, can you consider whether the garter hole is in the right place, or needs moving so that the sally is the same (or almost) when the bell is down vs. up.

In a lot of cases, some of these things are genuine guesses, sometimes they work, sometimes they dont and it's not always obvious without working some numbers out what is actually wrong.

Bottom of Sally next to my nose often works as a rule of thumb(?) which doesn't need a tape measure. But all the factors mentioned above means many bells vary widely!

When fitting new ropes, I set them so that the elusive 'average' ringer catches the sally about two-thirds of the way up the sally. Then as the ropes start to wear over the months at the garterhole, I can draw the weakened section of rope an inch or so inside the garter hole so that is is no longer flexed at every stroke. We are still using the ropes (by Peter MInchin) bought when the bells were installed in 1972 - that's 52 years of weekly service ringing and practice nights.

we’ve been using pre stretched polyester for 40 years and had no evidence of garter hole wear.

most replacements involve a single rope, in which case the best guide is to make it 5he same as the ropes either side, or the average if they are different.

I don't rcall polyester being widely available in 1970 when we bought the ropes for our new bells. We have since had all the top ends (from 1 metre above the sallies) replaced with polyester on our spare set and are gradually introducing them as the old ones are replaced.