Ringing Forums

For the first it sounds like the ringer is struggling to understand how to control ringing to the balance each time, and therefore how to be able to choose to wait before the next stroke.
Possibly some time alone to try to ring slower and slower and slower (but with control) might be useful for really feeling where the balance is.
It might also help to go through the mechanics again, a refresher on what the bell is doing and therefore how you can influence it can be useful once someone is able to ring but needs to fine tune.

For the second the most obvious exercise seems to be the hands down and look the tail end is right here for your hand to fall on, wrists together actions because then there is no reason to worry and it should become clear that it is actually easier and takes less time, because your hand arrives at the tail end at the bottom of the hand stroke (no ‘catching’ required).
It might help to demonstrate this yourself (and I’ll bet ART has a video for it) and to get him to try it while you hold the tail end or hover near the tail end so that there’s no pressure. It’s also one which can be practiced with a down bell, simply practicing the movement with no swing in the bell, to make it feel normal to bring the hands all the way down.

Hopefully some of this helps but bellringing.org will have more exercises and videos which might also help.

Failure to get right up to the back in plain hunting or in method ringing is a very common fault. Certainly better bell control is required, plus listening skills to identify that the bell is too close to the bell it is following because it is getting up to only about 4 and a half instead of right up to fifth place in doubles.

One point to note about this 'not getting up enough' progression that goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 4.5, 4.5, 4, 3, 2, 1 is that the change of speed between hunting up and down is spread over more blows. The change in position during this faulty process goes +1, +1, +1, +1, +0.5, 0, -0.5, -1, -1, -1, -1 (instead of the required ... +1, +1, 0, -1, -1... at the top for accurate striking). The faulty version therefore requires much less effort, as it consists of a larger number of small changes rather than the greater change of pace that is needed when changing direction accurately. The faulty process involves less effort and less anticipation, so can easily result from poor bell control.

I would suggest Kaleidoscope and similar exercise, starting with long places. Stand in front of the student as they ring perhaps 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 3... The aim is that they move directly from 3rd to 4th position, and then stay in 4th (rather than not going far enough at the change and not really getting up to 4th until the second blow there). Once the student has the idea of what to do, insist on really accurate striking. Ensure (by warning them in advance verbally or by gesture) to anticipate, so for example making a stronger pull on the fourth blow in 3rd place so as to be able to let the bell float up, giving the required extra delay to that it comes down accurately in 4th place. Only when they can consistently do this with long places, move on to just two blows in each place, and then revisit plain hunting.

You'll probably need to repeat the process when the student starts method ringing with dodges, as they will likely do 'lazy dodges' not getting up or down far enough at the dodge.

place making is a useful exercise but not really a transition to hunting. There isn’t time in one blow to change to ringing at a different speed. It is a single step rather than switching to going up or down hill.
Failure to get right to the back is made worse in Doubles because you arrive at backstroke, which with most ringers tends to revert to rounds speed.
Many ringers who ring by following ropes don’t consciously change speed, they merely make a number of enforced steps, the aggregate effect of which is an approximate speed change, but one that is always a bit behind the curve, and fails as soon as they fail to see the next rope to follow. That might be what happens at the back.
A very good exercise if you have access to a simulator is to get them to ring rounds at normal speed (say 3h peal speed) and then ring rounds at 3h30 speed and at 2h30 speed, which correspond to hunting up and down on 6. If you simulator has visuals turn them off because you want them to feel what ringing at different speeds is like, without the distraction of jumping to follow ropes.

Plain Hunt - One tip I try, is to get new learners when hunting up to say, 2nds place, 3rds place, etc, whilst waiting for each bell.
Hunting back down, say, 5ths, 4ths, 3rds, etc, to help enphasis this is quicker.

if the problem really is not knowing how far they have gone that might help but sadly in many cases the problem is execution. Saying the name of a place doesn’t help them to know where it is and how far from it their bell is, nor the action they need to get it their. The counting goes on in one part of their brain, separate from the rest which carries on doing the same unsuccessful actions as before.

Many ringers who ring by following ropes don’t consciously change speed, they merely make a number of enforced steps, the aggregate effect of which is an approximate speed change, but one that is always a bit behind the curve, and fails as soon as they fail to see the next rope to follow. That might be what happens at the back. — John Harrison

When I started ringing the band struggled to get past back rounds in Plain Hunt. The reason was that the ringers with the worst bell control would only ring the front bells, and they could only ring at two speeds, slow and slower. The rest of the band were completely dependent on bell numbers, so once the front bells got to the back they just festered there with the rest of the band desperately trying to hold up over them. The concepts of in, rounds & out speeds, let alone "at the front" or "at the back" were all a mystery. It can be difficult for experienced ringers to fully appreciate the almost complete lack of situational awareness that afflicts some ringers, they can only ring by bell number and then only if all the bells they are over are in the right place.

Saying the name of a place doesn’t help them to know where it is and how far from it their bell is, nor the action they need to get it their. The counting goes on in one part of their brain, separate from the rest which carries on doing the same unsuccessful actions as before. — John Harrison

This is very true. I can think of the case of one ringer who would insist they were counting places and were therefore in the right place when there was a fire-up. What they were actually doing was counting pulls, pulls that were divorced from the speed the rest of the band were ringing at.

I think a large part of these problems are due to the way ringing is taught, with insufficient emphasis on rhythm and listening. That creates dependence on other people being in the right place visually, whereas what's really needed are the skills to be in the right place in time, independent of others.

A simulator exercise I use is to get people to ring with the moving ringers and highlight ringer turned on, and when they have rung a couple of steady leads, I turn the screen off and tell them to keep going. I don't tell them in advance because they invariably say they won't be able to do it, whereas they almost invariably can. The goal is to show them that they *do* have rhythm and listening skills, but they are being swamped by the emphasis on vision that dominates ringing teaching. A large part of being able to ring by rhythm is having the confidence to actually try it.

We have had many discussions about ringing by vision versus listening/rhythm in our tower. Some of us can see the order of the bells all the time, I can't do that but I can ring Surprise Major on the simulator just by ear. I can't comprehend how they can see all the bells, they can't comprehend how I can ring without seeing them at all. I suspect the top-flight ringers can do both, the rest of us have to do the best we can by emphasising our natural strengths and working on our weaknesses. One of our learners is very sound-dominated and always been able to pick out their bell and could cover well from the start by "Just being the last bong". Another learner will "accurately" clash away forever, because they are ringing just by vision and can't hear their bell. We've adapted out teaching specifically to them, some teaching I've seen seems to be adapted to the proclivities of the teacher rather than she student.

But the common thing they all need to get sorted first is bell control, without that they don't have the skills to get the bell in the right place, even when they know it's not.

I tend to agree with other comments - the younger ringer's problem goes right back to basics. When I see that a learner is not pulling right through at backstroke, I will rest the first two fingers of one of of my hands on top of his hand and gently apply pressure to continue the downward movement until the backstroke is completed and his hands are down by his lap.

I also remind the learner that the bellrope does not come down at a constant speed but accelerates as the bell swings down towards bottom-dead-centre and slows as it swings up to the 'UP' or set position. We often describe the speed of the ringer's arm movement as 'pulling down at 30mph and then the hands rising up at 40mph to catch the sally'.

It is also important to adjust the rope length so that the learner's arms are at a comfortable full-stretch when the bell is at backstroke. Hence they must straighten their arms at backstroke and cannot control the bell with elbows bent at 90º. Then when introducing the handstroke start by having them reach as high up the sally as they can with arms comfortably fully stretched, this is the 'target' position for catching the sally. If necessary use a rubber band or a loop of string to mark this 'target' position on the sally. Caveat - use this only briefly so that it doesn't lead to them always watching the sally rise and fall - a chronic bad habit that is difficult to break!

Regarding the lady who struggles with plain hunting: a useful exercise might be to ring only two bells and have the learner following a competent ringer. The object is for your learner to keep in step with the other ringer. Ring 'rounds' on the two until the rhythm setttles, then have the other ringer ring 5 or 6* deliberately slow blows as if hunting up, followed by 5 or 6 quicker blows to represent hunting down. You can insert a few blows at 'standard' rounds speed between the hunting-up set and the hunting-down set if it helps. This should help to give the learner the confidence to adjust the speed of her ringing.
(* Depending on whether you practice Doubles or Minor. Personally I prefer to always use 6 blows as the even number seems to make it easier for the learner to 'change gear'.)

For the second, here's a fun exercise: Use the tower's empty sweet tubs - Put them upside down on the floor where each rope falls. Each ringer has to ensure that they pull far enough down at each stroke, and with enough of a chop (we find that 'chop' is a far more effective word than 'flick'), to make a drumming sound on the tub. It's fun and everyone can try it. (Depending on the size of the bells, two tubs stacked may be required, or only the tub lids).

For the lady who can't hunt to 5ths place, the band could try "rounds and back rounds": (credit to St Pauls in the Jewlellery quarter for this exercise).
Put confident ringers on the 1 and the 6.
Explain "back rounds means you will look the other way", for the visual ringers.

- start in rounds until they have settled down.
- call back rounds with 2 blows warning.
- the tenor (6) maintains their speed, the other follow in reverse order, continue until back rounds has settled down
- call rounds with 2 blows warning
- treble maintains speed, everyone else follows in rounds

This exercise helps because it requires everyone to hold up. It is conceptually easy.

pulling down at 30mph and then the hands rising up at 40mph to catch the sally'. — Peter Sotheran

Regardless of the actual speeds that must be wrong. First the speed varies a lot, from zero to quite fast in under half a second, and second because the bell swings symmetrically, so the movement of the rope up and down is also symmetrical, at least during the relevant part, ie ignoring what happens during the lower parts of the stroke, where they differ, and also ignoring the fact that the handstoke rises very slightly more to give the open handstroke.

the speed varies a lot, from zero to quite fast in under half a second, — John Harrison

An interesting aside: I was talking to a friend who has built an incredibly accurate simulator which models the physics of the bell/wheel/rope system, you can even "bounce" off the nonexistent stay, or ring as if you were on the moon (i.e. very slowly!). He told me that during his modelling work he found out why some ropes can "jump wheel". It's because wheel is moving faster than gravity can accelerate the rope downwards, so if the ringer doesn't keep tension on the rope it will "float" off the rim.

Yes, you are of course quite correct. You know that and I know that, but I doubt any learners have ever considered the point! Over the years, when learners first start ringing both strokes (with assistance), I have noticed that at the bottom of the backstroke their hands tend to dwell in front of their lap, as they will have been told when starting to ring backtroke only.

The idea of using an example of speed differential is to encourage them to move their hands quickly upwards to catch the sally. It seems to work!

the fact that the wheel can push the rope faster than gravity has been known for a long time. So where there are dramatic videos of the rope being pushed away from the wheel. Any tendency to move sideways while ‘in flight’ can obviously mean it doesn’t land back in the groove.
You sometimes see a ‘flapping board’ fitted to a frame where an outward flying rope could hit another wheel or a bearing housing. We have one.
Btw i sent John an email a couple of weeks ago asking about progress since I rang his simulator a year ago but not heard so far.

at the bottom of the backstroke their hands tend to dwell in front of their lap, as they will have been told when starting to ring backtroke only — Peter Sotheran

That’s why it’s a good idea to introduce the two stroke action as early as possible. Otherwise their bodies will learn that ringing is about ‘move and pause’, which makes it difficult to learn the desired ‘move and move and move, …’ action.

You sometimes see a ‘flapping board’ fitted to a frame where an outward flying rope could hit another wheel or a bearing housing. We have one. — John Harrison

So do we. The gap between the wall and the wheel on our 7 is less than the diameter of the rope. After it was roped from the other side during the rehang, the rope jumped far enough of the wheel to get jammed between the wall and wheel and stop the bell dead. A board solved that.

Btw i sent John an email a couple of weeks ago asking about progress since I rang his simulator a year ago but not heard so far. — John Harrison

Last time I talked to him he was still working on finishing the full set off, he said he was uprating the back 2 of the 10 to bigger motors. I'll be seeing him and/or Linda in a few weeks, I'll get an update :-)

Thanks for the comments everyone, some interesting ideas which I'll attempt going forward. I especially like the ideas of ringing at different "peal speeds". I think part of the problem is that my tower is a very light and easy going six, so when ringing PB doubles, we ring at quite a pace.

This has the effect of the ringers never really having to "hold up" except for maybe 10% of the time, perhaps 1 stroke per lead.

That’s why it’s a good idea to introduce the two stroke action as early as possible. Otherwise their bodies will learn that ringing is about ‘move and pause’, which makes it difficult to learn the desired ‘move and move and move, …’ action."

Yes that's vital. And I tell learners not to put their hand by their sides after pulling off the handstroke, but to put their hands together in front of them. And use a dummy tail end asap. Helps prevent 'windmilling'.

With regard to the learner who as difficulty getting to fifths place, is it only fifths place or is thjirds place also too close but compensated by going slower than normally required to get to fourths i.e. is it simply that she can't ring slow backstrokes? I alwys tell my learners that they need to pull the handstroke harder than the backstroke for two reasons, bearing in mind tnat work = force x distance
a) because tne pull is shorter
b) because you have to lift the weight of te rope by aboit six feet i.e more work needed
So practice with almost setting the bell every backstroke might help.

Learning tne hunting rhythm can be done in several ways
a) with a simulator with te learner ringing a live bell
b) if she has difficulty hearing, put her on a silent bell and make her shadow someone ringing a live bell
c) if no simulator, silence the treble and have a steady band ring rounds on the back five. If learner pulls with the treble of the back five, she is leading, pulling with the second is seconds place, and so on up to fifths. If you have more than six bells it can be done with a six-bell rhythm.

All this may be old hat, but not all teachers do it.
Phil Gay

is it simply that she can't ring slow backstrokes? — Phil Gay

The inability to ring backstrokes at the required speed is something I see a lot, both hunting up and hunting down. To a degree it is masked by extra effort at handstroke but it is there. I hunting on 5, which is where many people start, the fact that the backstroke in 5ths isn't followed by such an extra effort to get into 6ths the following handstroke is why it shows up so badly. In effect the upward effort ended in 4ths place.
I believe there are two causes, one mental and one physical.
Mentally people tend to think about 'when to pull' more at handstroke, whereas the backstroke 'just happens'.
Physically to change the default speed at backstroke (ie the speed the body/bell will ring with no conscious effort) you have to move hands up or down the rope, and learners tend to cling on (to mthe same spot) for fear of letting go, whereas at handstroke each stroke is a fresh grip on the rope, and where the hand lands is influenced by the urgency or otherwise of thet arms' upward movement, which automatically varies between trying to ring faster or slower.

Teach from the bottom up, then the student will learn to appreciate the intricacies of each stroke as the bell reaches the balance, and as it comes down, when lowering, leading to full bell control, sadly lacking with many learners.