Ringing Forums

Hmmm, "super-benefice" sounds suspiciously like a Methodist circuit. "parish hubs", well each Methodist Minister has several chapels within the circuit under his care. "train laity to take on clergy responsibilities", well of course Methodism has always relied on its Local Preachers to take a larger percentage (possibly majority) of services. Perhaps Welby has been studying Wesley?

Oh and BTW, I've never heard of a Methodist Church with a ring of bells. :-(

The Keltek Trust and bellringers are experienced in rehoming smaller rings of bells - there are probably lots of potential homes for a 10cwt ring of eight for instance, or a nice light six, but faced with the need to rehome a 30cwt ring of ten what would we do? Something outside the UK?

The Keltek Trust handled the moving of the 25cwt 8 from the Victoria Tower, Chatham to Gorran, Cornwall. See http://kent.lovesguide.com/tower.php?id=41 for details of the bells and their original setting. See https://dove.cccbr.org.uk/tower/14529 for the bells (including augmentation) in their current setting.

The one-third losses in congregation numbers and in revenue seem to be a pretty closely parallel to the decline in the numbers who claim membership of a Christian church. Perhaps the two debates should be digested together.

Hmmm, "super-benefice" sounds suspiciously like a Methodist circuit. "parish hubs", well each Methodist Minister has several chapels within the circuit under his care. "train laity to take on clergy responsibilities", well of course Methodism has always relied on its Local Preachers to take a larger percentage (possibly majority) of services. Perhaps Welby has been studying Wesley? — J Martin Rushton

A closer analogy might be a ringing hub where resources are gathered and applied where needed. Methodist circuits, in theory, provide a minister for each church (rotate after 3 years I think) and support when a minister is needed for services. Like an archdeaconry in CofE.

Having recently joined a PCC, the cost of maintaining a Victorian pile is high, the cost of maintaining clergy is also considerable, the suggested donation for a parish being 80K annually.

It could be that the C of E is planning to dispose of assets it no longer has need of, to support those that are still viable. Bell ringing is a by-product of CofE churches, they don’t exist just to keep the bells dry :smile:

Perhaps the CCCBR could organise a new bell ringing centre in Wigan so that bell ringers own the bells they ring. In that case, some-one is going to need deep pockets.

(OT)

Methodist circuits, in theory, provide a minister for each church (rotate after 3 years I think) — Alan C

Sorry Alan but that's not accurate. A circuit will usually have more churches than clergy, this has always been the case. The superintendent minister (aka "the super") has a similar role to a bishop (in American practice he is called a bishop), approving preachers (ordained clergy, local preachers, on note and on trial), and being responsible for dogma and discipline. One big job every quarter is drawing up the preaching plan to ensure that all the ministers rotate around the churches in the circuit. Local preachers are free to be more restrictive in their availability. The rotating clergy of course are required for Holy Communion which is much less frequent than in the CofE. Pastoral care of the churches is from a particular minister. A minister might easily have four churches, one larger on and then smaller ones, a bit like a united benefice.

[warning: I may be getting a little dated here] When a minister is leaving a circuit the stewards of the churches under his care will invite [whole process simplified] a new minister for a period of four years. If approved by Conference then the new minister will take up his post on 1 September, thus there is no interregnum (except in the case of a death). As the four year spell comes towards the end, if the stewards are happy they may issue an invitation to extend the minister's stay. In the 1980s (I did say I might be a bit dated) common stays were 6 or 7 years.

Perhaps the CCCBR could organise a new bell ringing centre in Wigan so that bell ringers own the bells they ring. In that case, some-one is going to need deep pockets. — Alan C

Wouldn’t it be for the Lancashire Association to do that? Needless to say, it’s a good point that bellringing is increasingly going to need to invest in its own infrastructure.

Rehoming a 30cwt 10 - the Roman Catholics have some fantastic empty towers.......

A very unfortunate situation in Wigan. Clearly badly handled, but whether or not your area undergoes such large-scale reorganisation, some church buildings will certainly close. Congregation numbers are still down pre-Covid, and the costs of running and maintaining the sort of churches with bells are steadily increasing.

The CofE has made £6.2m available to dioceses for grants to churches for urgent repairs, however the maximum grant is £12,000 - that won't go far for a new roof, or repairing a structurally unsound tower.

Personally, I am of the opinion that each territorial association needs to be looking at supporting a skeleton network of towers across their areas which are not under CofE control. It will require a lot of money and a lot of vision. Neither of which I have - best of luck to those that do...!

It will require a lot of money and a lot of vision. — Tristan Lockheart

And a great deal of effort and time. How many will be willing to stand as a local official if it requires a great deal of unpaid work (or paid) to administer, fund and organise a network of buildings?

Bell ringing as a pastime has been compared to cycling and running, but I think heritage railways are probably a closer fit. It’s an activity that can only take place in a limited number of locations, using expensive and heritage methods.

Bell ringing as a pastime has been compared to cycling and running, but I think heritage railways are probably a closer fit. It’s an activity that can only take place in a limited number of locations, using expensive and heritage methods. — Alan C

And of course, heritage railways can sell their activity and generate income in a way that bellringing cannot. Really, we need to find a way to monetise it either internally or externally to generate the sums needed for the Exercise to be self-sufficient.

A nightmare scenario has just occurred to me. When the PCC are presented with a large bill to keep the bells ringing, or when there simply aren't enough ringers for a Sunday morning, then how about installing the sort of sound system seen in Mosques? A tape machine, or more likely these days a PC, attached to a powerful amplifier and speaker at the top of the minaret. Easy to transpose to a control machine downstairs and the speakers up in the tower. Open up, press the button and a perfectly struck 15cwt 8 start on Plain Bob Triples. How to pay for it? Well there's a couple of tons of unused expensive bronze up in the loudspeaker chamber that the local scappie would give a good quote for ...

There are already chiming sets in many churches so that small, inexpensive bells can play perfect Bristol Major for every occasion. There is a church in Kensal Green which does this, playing for the Coronation, for the Bishop’s visit, etc. These sets of bells are less expensive to install and require less maintenance, because they are hung dead and chimed with hammers. So this is a definitely an option which the church is aware of.
I did also hear that some churches played a recording of their bells at the start of virtual services during Covid when the bells were not being rung.

Bellringing is more like archery than cycling or running, more like hot air ballooning than heritage railways because you need specific space and equipment but only those involved really benefit (most of the time).
In my experience few people from outside invest into bellringing (some of the heritage guilds and liveries have done in the City of London) so we probably need to be prepared to consolidate as churches close and costs to keep towers running need to match available and interested ringers.

I can’t think of any obvious example where an equivalent art / sport / heritage activity has taken off as mainstream and grown in a way which makes it financially secure and well attended in cities, towns and villages across the country.
I think the earlier we stop the decline the more chance we have of keeping as many towers and bands functioning as possible and this will depend on the number of ringers who will act to help with recruitment, training and supportive ringing, ringers who would really miss it if it was gone rather than simply shrugging shoulders and doing something else one evening a week.
The issue is that this might be only 10-25% of current ringers (judging by those willing to take on a role in the local guild or association or get involved in additional ringing purely to support others, etc) but this is an unknown number as people haven’t really been asked to try to stop a crisis and I guess Ringing 2030 needs to, gently and positively, help ringers understand the risk of not getting involved.

That is effectively what happened in Spain when paid bellringers demanded more money and churches found it more effective to automate the ringing instead of putting up with bellringers.

In terms of your scenario though, there would probably be a limited number of cases where enough money could be raised to warrant the hassle. The DAC would hopefully object when the faculty was applied for, and I think there would be fairly heavyweight opposition from Historic England. Would any bellhanger dare to take on the work?

Leicester Diocese are also working on this problem by creating Minster churches that will then head up a large group of parishes, part of this solution is that it cuts down on paid clergy relying on various other non salaried clergy and lay posts. One problem highlighted is that Service times suffer, as congregation at one church stated we only have an 8.00am Communion Service. This won't attract many, especially those with young families; result is that they now only get two people at a Service.

I was a member of the CCCBR’s Ringing Centres Committee for quite a long time. I saw quite a few proposals to establish new ringing centres, but these were often focussed on doing something with a particular ring of bells, rather than a well thought out plan to recruit and train new ringers. There are many towers out there which with just a little investment would make ideal teaching towers, rather than undertake an ambitious project elsewhere.

We also have a problem in the exercise that many Guilds and Associations have been focussed on hardware projects for the last five or six decades, but so many rings of bells have been restored, and with modern fittings they now need less maintenance going forward. The need for new rings of bells and augmentations is also not top of most PCC’s list of priorities. Therefore, we need to review our priorities.

With much bell restoration fund money invested in short term deposit accounts, and losing value through inflation, we could invest that money far more effectively in people projects. A typical grant of £10k spent on one major bell restoration project at one tower, would go a long way to helping to regenerate local bands at sevral towers.

If members see a large balance in the BRF they have less incentive to raise funds for it. With property prices where they are, in recent years several Guilds and Associations have also received large windfall bequests, far more than they know what to do with.

The CofE has a dilemma. It needs to attract younger people, but it cannot afford to upset the older members of its congregations. It also has a large number of buildings which are inflexible, not situated in ideal locations and expensive to insure, heat and maintain.

In our local Deanery we have a ring of three in a small village. Five years ago, they were augmented to six, but there is only one service a month. The benefice has two other village churches with ring of bells, but since Covid there are just two ringers left in the benefice, and they don’t have the time or energy to train a new band.

A neighbouring benefice has four churches, two with bells. One of these is a ring of five which were installed fifteen years ago in an empty tower. This is now a ‘festival’ church with a handful of services each year. The Christmas service is at 8am, and the church has no churchwardens.

Another benefice also has two towers with bells and they too both have difficulties filling churchwarden and PCC vacancies. One of these churches is also now also a ‘festival’ church.

Evensong is now almost non-existent at any church in our Deanery, having been replaced at the larger churches with family orientated teatime gatherings.

One thing is certain, we cannot expect ringing to continue the way it has continued over recent decades. We cannot restore every ring bells and add more. We need to recognise the realities adapt. We have significant resources at our disposal and as ‘Ring for the King’ has shown, an activity which many members of the public are willing to participate in, and these new people are needed to help address our own demographic challenges and preserve the exercise.

Very good analysis. In another forum you regularly get ringers looking at big chunky towers and saying "we could get a ring of bells in there" but never the question of whether it's really a good place to put one, i.e. because there would be loads of people wanting to ring because it was a really active church with youth groups etc. There are rings of bells available already which cannot find homes (just ask Dave Kelley at Keltek).

If you talk to some people in the CofE who don't mind speaking their mind you will find sceptism over the longevity of the Festival Church idea. It serves to keep a church open for another few years, but it doesn't make the cost of doing that go away. There still needs to be a PCC responsible for insurance and upkeep of the bells. Bishop of Ramsbury spoke at the last historic buildings conferecne I went to and he said that given the Church has always taken a long term view we should do everything we can do keep churches open as long as possible as things might change.

Which sorts of place are most at risk? Is is small country parishes with disappearing congregations but strong local community support for the building? Or big Victorian piles built in times of urban expansion where there is no real need any more and no one to care?

Which sorts of place are most at risk? Is is small country parishes with disappearing congregations but strong local community support for the building? Or big Victorian piles built in times of urban expansion where there is n — Simon Linford

That's a good question, pointing to an obvious answer. Now ask which of them is surrounded by a large enough population to be likely to provide a band of ringers? It might not be the one that has enough support to keep the building.

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2023/17-february/news/uk/church-closures-disproportionately-higher-in-low-income-areas-research-finds

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2023/30-june/news/uk/instead-of-closure-churches-might-be-allowed-to-lie-fallow

Two articles that may be of relevance, if you have access to copies of The Church Times

FYI, without signing in you are allowed to read 2 free articles per month.

This fear has been around since commercial scale speakers became available perhaps a 100 years ago, just look at RW letters from the time. This has yet to come to pass in a wide spread way so perhaps no big enemy to continuation of ringing?

To answer Martin Rushton's comment of a few weeks ago, the former Anglican church in Hebburn, Co. Durham was acquired by the Presbyterian Methodists in the 1970s. According to my 1988 Dove it had been converted to become 'St Andrew's Parish Centre' at the time of that edition. Google reveals that it is now a Buddist meditiation centre:
https://co-curate.ncl.ac.uk/st-andrews-church-hall-hebburn/

Footnote to my message of last week:

Dove's Guide ( https://dove.cccbr.org.uk/dove?text=hebburn ) lists as:
"Hebburn, Tyne and Wear, Wat Phra Dhammakaya Meditation Centre. 6, 7–0–22 (366 kg) in A. Former church of Andrew (Presbyterian) (until 1982)."

Is this the only Buddist place of worship with a ring of English style bells?

<grin> More to the point, are the bells ever used or simply forgotten and allowed to deteriorate in splendid isolation?

Hebburn, Wat Phra Dhammakaya Meditation Centre, is not listed under the D&N Association's 'lost towers' and still has a tower correspondent. [url=http://]http://dandn.esy.es/new/central.html[/url]

" a PC, attached to a powerful amplifier and speaker at the top of the minaret."

A church that I visit when visiting family each year has done just that. Perfectly struck ringing and a small repertoire of 'sound tracks'. Unfortunately the synthesised bells are those of the chime bars in a mantelpiece clock and produce a very gentle 'bong' sort of sound. Still, this is in Los Angeles not the UK so it may be a while before these systems pervade the British Isles!

A couple of further thoughts on amplified bells come to mind. There is the apocryphal tale of the church that installed an amplified system back in the 1960s or 70s. The vicar rushed out and bought what he considered to be a suitable record - The Bells of St Mary's - only to be somewhat taken aback when the velvet tones of Bing Crosby boomed out from the church tower!

To my own knowledge a modern (1950s) church on a large housing estate in Middlesbrough had a tall narrow tower - it was little more then 2 metres square inside. They regularly played a recording of a 12 bell tower through their sound system.

Link to the history here.

Scroll to the end to see the "old" (1966) church with its diminutive tower.

Thanks for that Martin. The church struck a remarkable deal with Morrison's Supermarket chain. They sold the site of the the 1966 church and part of the deal included the provision of a brand new church, as illustrated in the booklet shown in Martin's post. The new building really is the 'bees knees' with community hall/parish centre alongside and a new vicarage too. The church organ is rated as one of the best in the region. Sadly no bells though.

Over these past few years I've really appreciated hearing Wigan parish church's bellgringing group practicsing of a Monday evening; the sound carries very well, such a beautiful sound. Across this summer there was about a month or two where I heard no bells and got sad at the thought that the group had disbanded, but it must have been just a hiatus as over the past two weeks I've heard them of a Monday evening again! I didn't know where else to post this to show some record of happy thanks, but saw this bellringing thread linked to the church's future and thought it was fitting enough; hope they never take those bells away!