Ringing Forums

Nice work.

No huge surprises I think, but I found the "How old you are when you start matters…" slide particularly interesting, as a late starter myself. It would be interesting to try to drill down as to why that's the case. For example, is it:

• The younger you are the quicker you learn and the further you get.
• It just takes a long time to become an advanced ringer, if you start late it's too late.
• Older starters just don't have the mental / physical capacity for it.
• There's an assumption that older starters won't amount to much and therefore appropriate teaching / mentoring is not offered.
• The advanced ringers are the ones who started early, had an aptitude and stuck at it, the less able dropped out, so there's selection bias going on.

I'm sure there are others as well, and it's going to be a combination of factors rather than just one.

There wasn't a detailed breakdown of how old people were when they started, other than the majority (57%) of current ringers started when they were over 21, and I suspect the average start age has moved up over the last decade or so.

83% of ringers want to improve their ringing, which obviously includes older ones. Whilst there's an understandable focus on youth opportunities I don't think older ringers should be forgotten, as at the moment they are the backbone of most towers, and will be for some considerable time, even if youth recruitment is successful.

Excellent initiative. Was there positive feedback on the survey itself?

Another possible reason for the younger learners ring more often and more advanced methods could be that these ringers are more likely to complete a survey.
In the Middlesex we sent the survey to our email list and asked tower contacts to send it on to other band members. Many people on the email list will be more active and more advanced ringers who ring more often because that’s why they want to receive the emails about district and association activities so this could influence the results.
Someone who learnt young but still ‘just’ rings on Sunday morning, happily enough, is less likely to have seen the survey and less likely to see a reason to complete a survey to help a national organisation which doesn’t really impact them think about the future.

Another possible factor which could be interesting to explore is whether it is true that people who learnt in the ‘golden age’ of ringing past were better supported to reach advance method ringing and therefore learning young thirty plus years ago was easier and better supported where learning young now might not be so much.
Having met a couple of returning ringers, who learnt thirty plus years ago and came back as Ring for the King returners, it seems that plenty of people also learnt to ring in years gone by and gave up finding it less satisfying than some others who stuck with it. So it’s hard to know if the experience and the percentage which stick at it and enjoy it has really changed or not.

From what I see, involved with district practices and district training events, older learners can learn just as successfully as younger learners if they want to, have the time for it and enjoy it (and if the opportunities to learn and practice, including talking about how to learn, what to look for or listen for whilst ringing, etc are provided).

Yes, there was quite a lot of feedback on the survey design, some specific questions and the flow of questions.
The tower captains survey needs some adjustments for towers without a regular band (as having said you don’t have a regular practice you were still asked lots of questions about what you practice and what teaching you do, etc) and the ringers survey needs to allow for ‘unattached’ ringers.
I have passed the feedback I received on, in detail, and I’m sure the other trial areas will have done the same so an improved version can be used by other Associations and Guilds, if they want to add to the volume of data available for analysis.

Thanks Lucy

From what I see, involved with district practices and district training events, older learners can learn just as successfully as younger learners if they want to, have the time for it and enjoy it (and if the opportunities to learn and practice, including talking about how to learn, what to look for or listen for whilst ringing, etc are provided). — Lucy Chandhial

I think that's right, but as an older starter myself I could obviously be biased :smile:. Of all of the people who I know who started with or after me, I'm the one who has got the furthest, but then again, I've put the most time and effort in. I do wonder if the importance of age is often overstated, and that the level of aptitude, opportunities, support and just plain old time on the end of a rope are more important factors?

I do wonder if the importance of age is often overstated — John de Overa

I'm sure it is. I think it's too easy to go from the generally accepted fact that learning certain types of skill gets harde with age on average to the assumption that it applies to all individuals. On average women are shorter than men, but my 6' daughter looked down on my 5'6" father.
And although developing the core skill of controlling a bell is fundamental to progress, it is only a small part of what leads to a long term ringing career, and many other aspects are not particularly age related. They depend much more on environment, opportunity and of course individual drive and interests.
Of the people I have taught (same teacher, same tower, etc) the fastest to being able to ring competently with others was 39. The slowest was 15, and his mother, who I taught later, at 50, was faster.

83% of ringers want to improve their ringing, which obviously includes older ones. — John de Overa

We were really pleased with this statistic. It shows that there is considerable energy in the exercise which is one thing we'll need in abundance to ensure the continuation of the art.

Whilst there's an understandable focus on youth opportunities I don't think older ringers should be forgotten, as at the moment they are the backbone of most towers, and will be for some considerable time, even if youth recruitment is successful. — John de Overa

Quite. There wouldn't be many young ringers around if it weren't for the older ringers teaching, mentoring, taxiing, etc. for a start! We need to get the balance right between giving special attention to young ringers rather than giving all of the attention to them, if you catch my drift.

We were really pleased with this statistic. It shows that there is considerable energy in the exercise which is one thing we'll need in abundance to ensure the continuation of the art. — Tristan Lockheart

My home tower has been CCs & wonky PH for at least the last 40 years. It's basically the same pool of ringers as before, but the band are now taking their first steps into method ringing. It may only have been Minimus + cover, but last night we rang 2 methods back-to back, and the buzz people got from it was heart warming to see. Obviously we need to look after the people heading towards the ringing pinnacles, but it's also important to look after those in the valleys as well - after all, there are more of us down here! :wink: I think it's good to remember that enjoyment and a sense of achievement usually depends more on a sense of making progress than it does on technical difficulty. As the saying goes, the journey is more important than the destination.

"83% say they are looking to improve their ringing"
Survey slide

I expect a similar proportion of the population want to lose weight. But very few people actually put that wish into action. Losing weight requires commitment, self discipline, perserverance etc.

Similarly, I'm sure most ringers want to improve, but it is very difficult to advance, not only do you need opportunities and know the right people, but you have to be very dedicated, and it takes a big investment of time both inside the tower and with learning methods in your own time.

A useful follow-up question to this would be - how.

For example, only at weekly practices in my own tower, through a branch mentoring programme, attending a weekend ringing course, attending a short course, regular attendance at focused practices, online ringing, quarterpeals etc...

you have to be very dedicated, and it takes a big investment of time both inside the tower and with learning methods in your own time — Charlotte Boyce

If you want to (say) ring Surprise Major then yes, all those things are true. But not everyone aspires to that level, certainly not from the start. Just the fact that people want to move on at all is to be welcomed, even if that's "only" from CCs to ringing inside to touches of PB. So another useful question would be "What level of ringing would you be happy to reach?".

I think the questions about learning opportunities need to considered in terms of practicality. For example I'd like to be learning to ring Surprise Major every week with a rock solid band - there's only one problem - there are none round here.

I think the most important factor in making continued progress is weekly access to support at the appropriate level. I feel there's too much emphasis on branch practices as being good learning opportunities (they aren't, for a whole host of reasons) or longer ringing courses, which whilst high-profile, don't deliver sustained progress and frankly are mostly a waste of time.

It's the grass roots that needs most attention, that needs to be regular and sustained over years. That's a far harder task, so unsurprisingly doesn't generally happen.

"83% say they are looking to improve their ringing"
Survey slide — Charlotte Boyce

Do we believe that? It would imply that only 1 in 6 isn't.
It's too easy to say you would like to improve. The follow up 'How?' Is a start, but I think it needs to go further since it's also easy to say you'd like something that's not available. A more probing question, less easy to answer glibly, would be 'What are you currently planning (or expect to within say six months) t improve your ringing?

Speaking from personal experience during the 1990s, I, a slow-learner, was drawn to progress by the support and inspirational qualities of those around me. For me there was never any inherent motivation to ring peals in great numbers, or "grab" the heaviest towers in the region.....it was the pleasure of participating in a fascinating activity and acquiring skills almost by sublimation. True, there was no ART, and yet I was fortunate in being led to advance almost accidentally by the gentle explanations and never-failing encouragement of the experienced ringers I rubbed shoulders with. Today I still have no aspirations towards peals etc yet would like to keep advancing, albeit slowly-slowly. I can understand the motivators that are pushing forward the desires to improve all aspects of change-ringing, but all the discussion so far is assuming that the student has both the inclination and the capacity to absorb the extraordinary amount of "learning" that is required to achieve the levels of proficiency that are being sought from, if not demanded of them. Please don't lose sight of the natures and, dare I say it, "qualities" of the people who express an interest in ringing. Perhaps acquiring an ability to truly understand the motivations and aspirations of our students is of greater value than providing them with rigidly followed pathway to the giddy heights of "advancement" in our activity?