• PeterScott
    76
    Philip Gorrod (RW p1188/16Dec2022) proposes a new strategy for retaining new recruits including:

    Get them to pay money! (up front) … the first two sessions [are] free and without obligation, after that I will require payment of a sum of money: currently ... £100...We should … be more selective and weed out those unlikely to make the grade at an early stage, and use the time saved to bring on the ones we keep.

    This is just one of a good collection of issues in the article and here are a few of my thoughts that it provoked.

    Aptitude ... An experienced teacher can usually tell within the first five minutes if [their new learner] is going to struggle, or if they are a complete natural.
    .
    Yes, quite so. Personally, as in my Forum biography, I learned to handle a bell in a single two-hour session. Of the hundred or more learners whom I have taught over these fifty years, one stands out as My Magic Learner who was also competent after a single evening, and continued to ring for about thirty years. That was a good return-on-investment in the terms Philip describes.

    The others are somewhere between My Magic Learner and those who have taken a year to learn to handle their bell, then given up because it is all to hard. I always make a prediction after a first learning session, and share it with the learner to help explain what it is they are letting themselves in for.

    As a tutor, I do bell-handling not out of duty-to-Ringing, or habit, but because it is my all-time-favourite ringing activity. I am always tweaking my standard script and exercises to the individual progress, strengths and weaknesses of each learner, and aim that each tweak becomes an addition to the toolkit that will help the-next-time.

    The Hundred Pounds
    When I learned to ring, and uprating for the inflation over the last fifty-odd years, I had, in the world, £2,240 and an application for funding for another year at University but no agreement thereto, ten weeks paid accommodation, needing to arrange somewhere new after that, no job, an application for Supplementary Benefit, which was then limited to twelve weeks for single men, after which there was nothing. Spending £100 in advance of the Grant-application decision would have been foolhardy for a potential new pastime with no possible economic benefit, however much I wanted to impress … (let’s not go there).

    More relevant to Philip’s charges is the current economic activity and deprivation indexes from the Office of National Statistics in East Sussex which shows the area has 19 smaller neighbourhoods within the 20% most income-deprived neighbourhoods in England.

    There is a fair chance of the new learner, in these runaway-inflationary times, having to choose between heating, meals and ringing, and maybe wishing not to admit to their colleagues in the choir that they have had to make the choice.

    The money does not get added to [Philp’s personal funds, who doesn’t] need or want £100 for teaching people to ring
    and that may make it even harder for those struggling to find the money. That includes families of teenagers, who are the best prospects as long-term ringers, but also have the additional possible calls on time enthusiasm and money from sports equipment, musical instruments, clothes, phones, computers, catch-up-tutoring: and these expensive teenagers can only assess the competing demands when they have had-a-good-go, and maybe only then if they find some mutually-compatible teenager doing the same activities.

    For me, it is one of the delights of ringing that it is outside the normal constraints of real-life-money and affordability: it’s all about skill and enthusiasm and not what you can buy-to-help. As a tutor, I want them to enjoy the experience enough to bring along the whole family to become addicted, however much extra teaching that needs: that’s just how ringing works. ...
  • Tristan Lockheart
    124
    For £100, I would be expecting weekly 1:1 sessions and a strong band to ring with! And that’s speaking as someone with a pretty decent financial position. Even beyond issues of affordability, I don’t think bellringing has £100-worth of enjoyment in the first year, at least for an up-front payment. The first year is spent not being able to ring with the rest of the band for some or all methods, and feeling a bit in the way. Depending on the band, there may or may not be a bit of a social life (pub, ringing tours, dinners etc.) but it is not a given. For young people, you may well not have anyone of your own age in the band, so it is not quite so socially-active from their perspective. I’m not saying it should be free, but we need to be realistic about what we have to offer.
  • Roger Booth
    98
    Of course, asking for £100 may put some off, but there are ways round this and a different charging structure could be adopted. However ringing is generally well out of date in its attitude to money and what people would be willing to pay. If only we charged a little more we would be able to do far more.

    I've just done a quick google search to see what it would cost to take up one of the alternatives to bellringing.

    Swimming lessons
    Start Mon 9th Jan 2023
    £55 per month

    After school soccer club - School Year: 2
    Tuesday's - 15.30-16:30
    From January 3, 2023 to March 28, 2023
    Price: £49.50

    Music Lessons
    From £13.93 for a 20 minute lesson to £27.76 for a 40 minute lesson. £9.25 for a single group lesson.

    Girlguiding
    The annual subscription amount is set by HQ. This goes towards running Girlguiding nationally. In 2023 this will be £28 per member. In addition amounts, known as levies, are set by the district, division, county and country or region. This helps with local running costs. As it’s set locally, this amount will be different for different units and levels. Each member pays a total of these two amounts as their annual subs. There are extra charges for uniform, special activities, camps and events.

    Scouts
    Subscription costs are £135 of which £36.00 per annum is the HQ fee. There are additional costs for activities and uniform.
  • J Martin Rushton
    104
    There's a bit of supply and demand here though. Many of the examples you give have a waiting list, or at least are in continuous demand. The same is not true of many towers. We would love some new recruits, why I might even take them down the pub and buy them a pint, certainly not charge them.
  • John Harrison
    433
    supply and demand will have an effect, pushing up the cost of tuition in high demand activities. But that's only true within a limited range. Organisations don't reduce the cost to zero as soon as they don't have a waiting list.
    In any case, it's better to create more demand than to give away what you have on the assumption that it's not worth paying for.
  • John Harrison
    433
    I see there are some pretty extreme reactions to the original letter in this week's Ringing World.
  • Rebecca Banner
    12
    A few years ago I took up archery for a couple of years. It has some similarities to bellringing - most new recruits don't have the equipment needed (club provides it for beginners), and also people need training before they can start to take part. The way it worked then, and presumably still does, is that you would have an initial training period. No money would change hands until the end of your training. If you decided not to continue, you would pay your club the cost of your training - I think it was in the region of £30. If you want to continue you need to pay to become a member of the national organisation, and the club receives some payment to cover your training cost from your subscription, which was about £50-£60 (I can't remember the exact figures now). You could not join your local club without being a member of the national organisation, partly as membership included being covered by insurance, so local clubs didn't need to arrange their own.
  • J Martin Rushton
    104
    If you have got some magical way to attract demand, then please share. We have a lovely ring of 8 (15-2-4 in F) but most Sundays we only have 3 or 4 ringers. I can't for the life of me see the argument that we should charge for what we have been given for free. I paid nothing to learn, I'm not going to charge recruits. Unlike archery the equipment is provided for free by the parish. Also unlike archery, ringing is both a pleasure and a service. Getting out of bed early on a cold, wet, January Sunday to ring call changes on 3 can be a chore, but it is the QPQ for the enjoyable times.
  • Tristan Lockheart
    124
    We should … be more selective and weed out those unlikely to make the grade at an early stage, and use the time saved to bring on the ones we keep.

    I think Philip Gorrod's rather harsh approach is probably not the most appropriate solution for most towers. It is necessary to prioritise - perhaps think about it in terms of opportunity cost.

    Continuing to teach one rather struggling learner versus:

    • focusing on the more able learners to give them the support they need
    • getting others to plain hunt
    • mentoring an aspiring ringing teacher
    • helping on a ringing course
    • teaching others to be steeple-keepers
    • helping with the activities of the local guild, the Central Council, ART etc.
    • organising a ringing tour for the band
    • helping the band prepare for a striking competition
    • your own personal development or wellbeing (you need to look after yourself too!)

    ... etc. etc.

    Ditching learners is not needed. However, a 'strategic reallocation of resources' in management-speak may prove necessary in the event of limited resources. So one learner, and they're struggling? You can probably keep going with them. But if you're doing everything in your tower/area already, then it is probably time to consider what would be best for your band, yourself, and ringing as a whole.
  • Roger Booth
    98
    If you have got some magical way to attract demand, then please share.J Martin Rushton

    In my experience it's not too difficult to find new ringers. There's some very useful recruitment advice on the Association of Ringing Teachers website: https://ringingteachers.org/resources/recruitment-and-retention

    The Central Council's Volunteer and Leadership Workgroup have also developed a very good ten-point plan and there is a video about this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-egnSnol7k&t=220s
  • J Martin Rushton
    104
    Interesting, I didn't realise that the ART site would be open to the public, I thought it was a bit of a "closed shop" for high end method ringers only. I'll have a study of the ideas.
  • John de Overa
    490
    If you mean http://www.learningtheropes.org/ it's the exact opposite, it's for beginners. There's a lot of very good stuff on it.
  • J Martin Rushton
    104
    No John, I was responding to Roger's post and the page of links to recruitment ideas.
  • John Harrison
    433
    ART ... I thought it was a bit of a "closed shop" for high end method ringers onlyJ Martin Rushton
    Wherever did you get that idea? It's an association of teachers, and it gets enough publicity to make its activities well known. Teaching starts at the beginning, and in practice ART expends more effort on the basics than on anything remotely resembling 'high end' ringing (unless by 'high end' you mean competent).
  • J Martin Rushton
    104
    Don't you have to ring a peal or something similar before you can join ART? I remember there was some comment in the RW maybe 10 years ago that ART was irrelevant to change ringing towers.
  • John de Overa
    490
    Don't you have to ring a peal or something similar before you can join ART?J Martin Rushton

    No, neither as a teacher not as a learner.

    I remember there was some comment in the RW maybe 10 years ago that ART was irrelevant to change ringing towers.J Martin Rushton

    Someone in RW talking out of their arse? Surely not! :joke:
  • PeterScott
    76
    ...some ... extreme reactions to the original letter in [6 Jan 2023] Ringing World.John Harrison

    Yes: lengthy responses, some expressed combatively. A summary of some of the thoughts:

    … I teach [ringing] ... to share the wonderful activity which has been a significant part of my life… I want others to experience the fun, friendship and challenge of being a ringer… We teach people to ring because the bells are part of the life of the church and wider community. … The church welcomes all, regardless of age and ability, and ... [ringing teachers] should do the same. … Ringing is a church activity and learning to ring at your local tower should never incur a charge. [Learners] come to their own conclusions about their ability ... [and] and until they decide whether ... ringing is for them, I continue to teach and support them. If [they] become a part of the local band, turn up and ring for Sunday service and are enjoying themselves, that is good ...If [they] decide not to continue ... it is time well spent helping to promote ringing and ensuring that more people in the community understand what ringing is about. … — Sally Thomas
    ...[While businesses] cannot waste time and valuable resources training the incompetent… …ringing has a… greater impact … in many areas of personal, church and community life. ...We are a ringing community, getting together as a team, attaining pleasure in meeting personal and team goals, and as teachers we should be supporting that. … Ringers will come and go as life takes its course. — Mark Robbins
    … slow-learner who simply enjoy [ringing] at their own pace, [and] the ... stellar natural talent … all are needed, especially now. … [Give] everyone a chance, and maybe another and yet another [Teachers who] come across a natural talent, a gifted bellringer, ... should pool these talents from various towers … Much like a Centre of Excellence. — Niels Benetar

    … from which reactions, there is little enthusiasm for Philip’s charging structure, or for discouraging those who find bellhandling slow-going. Some of us expressly enjoy teaching bell-handling as a ringing activity, while for Philip it was “soul-destroying” worrying at “the utter waste of time” of teaching those who soon give up.

    Maybe the bellhandling needs to be separated from the mentoring through competent rounds, different bells and to basic methods.

    About Philip’s worry that “Compared with when I was taught 50 years ago there are very few ‘good’ ringers around. If we don’t instill an expectation in new recruits that they are going to be good enough to take over from people like me in due course then in a generation there will be no leaders...”, there is the idea of Centres of Excellence. What else do we need, to identify and encourage these future leaders? Discuss :-)
  • John de Overa
    490
    Maybe the bellhandling needs to be separated from the mentoring through competent rounds, different bells and to basic methods.PeterScott

    Yes, I think you are completely right and we already do so.

    I teach "solo skills" 1:1 on a tied bell & simulator, starting with basic bell handling and working up to the skills needed to control a bell for PH, dodging etc. The TC teaches PH & above at the weekly group practices. There's overlap of course, but it seems to work well for us.

    I do think teaching of handling tends to stop far too soon, usually just as soon as people can avoid killing themselves (or other ringers) when ringing call changes. I had a real struggle myself trying to move beyond CCs because my bell handling was just not up to it. I was fortunate in that I went on a bell handling course that was specifically aimed at the post-CC "skill gap" and I've had lots of time on a tower sim ringing a real bell of a realistic weight. My handling is still "work in progress", but even I get a bit despondent when I see people who believe "I can handle a bell just fine, thank you" have ago on a tower sim and can't change speed accurately - and they then blame the sim for not being "realistic". Well, yes - unlike real ringers, the sim takes no prisoners - it won't hold up over you if you are unfailingly slow coming off the back! The root causes seem to be pretty universal - over-pulling all the time and then having to continuously check hard as a result, and not moving up and down the rope appropriately.
  • Simon Linford
    315
    It's an interesting model, but how did the club secure the £30 to be collected from the learner who then gave up? Just on trust?
  • Rebecca Banner
    12
    In my case I didn't have to pay anything until I finished my training. But the club I joined was a small local affair who weren't particularly organised. I only got my certificate of training when I wanted to visit another club and needed proof from my own club that I had passed the training. Larger or more organised clubs may very well take the payment up front.
    Being a very honest person who wouldn't dream of skipping out without paying, I never considered that it might be more normal for the payment to be taken upfront!
  • Alison Hodge
    151
    Regarding Martin's comment that the bells are provided free by the parish, I would be very cautious. Yes, the bells in the vast majority of towers are now owned and the responsibility of the church authorities. However, many towers were constructed and provided in the parish from funds from philanthropic donors and voluntary contributions. The bells themselves were often donated similarly as is often evident in the comments cast in. Maintenance of towers and bells, as well as the churches themseleves relies on substantial contributions from outside the parish. I don't know about archery clubs, but most club activities rely on volunteers and grants for funding in a very similar way to churches.
  • J Martin Rushton
    104
    But a donated bell belongs to the parish. Consider the box of beer my brother-in-law donated to me in memory of Christmas. He won't get any of that back, ever! More seriously, unless there is some sort of restriction, a donation is a free gift regardless of inscriptions. One of the bells in Rochester Cathedral was donated by the USS Pittsburgh and part of the letter from the CO reads:

    “I hand you herewith a check for £52, 10s, from Admiral Huse, the Officers and Men of Pittsburg, to cover the cost of re-casting a bell for the Cathedral chimes. I understand that it is agreeable to you to have the bell marked “U.S.S. Pittsburgh, 1920.”

    “Please accept this as a token of our great appreciation of kindnesses received, and of our sincere desire that our two peoples may always happily associate and feel as kindly toward each other, as we do, to our hosts of the last two-and-a-half months. May the Pittsburgh bell sound from the Tower of your ancient city a sweet tone, a note of goodwill from us to you."

    It was duly cast with “U.S.S. PITTSBURGH IN MEMORY OF 1920” as an inscription. Clearly a gift with no strings attached.
  • John Harrison
    433
    I do think teaching of handling tends to stop far too soonJohn de Overa

    Yes. There is a tendency to consider it the first step, followed by different things, whereas in reality there is a continued need for caching in 'bell driving skills' alongside the progression to collective ringing with increasingly demanding manoeuvres, on a wide range of bells.
    A more helpful term is 'bell control', of which 'handling' may be considered the initial step.
  • John Harrison
    433
    a donated bell belongs to the parishJ Martin Rushton
    Legally in modern times it is owned by the PCC, but 'the parish' has a wider meaning of the local community. In the times when many of our bells were installed the ecclesiastical church was only responsible for the chancel. The rest of the church, including the tower and bells belonged to the community in a more real sense, and it's upkeep was down to the civic authority in a town or the Lord of the Manor in the country.
    The idea that the only reason people ring is to call people to church is also modern. Until the Victorian clergy decided to take over ringing it was entirely separate from the church, and there was no service ringing - all public ringing was for civic events.
    Bringing ringing more closely into the church had many benefits, to both the church and ringing. The clergy founded many of the ringing societies that are the infrastructure of modern ringing, and they promoted change ringing as a way to raise the tone of ringers. One result was the massive growth in peal ringing after around 1880.
    But the downside is that civic ringing, and the connection between the civic community and ringers, has withered. That's a loss, but it's becoming more of a loss because as the Church declines, and church buildings close or find other uses, ringing will have to build new and stronger links with the community outside churches. Even if ringers start to pay realistic amounts for their hobby they will still be dependent on public goodwill to support major projects, and the live with public ringing.
  • PeterScott
    76
    Philip Gorrod (RW p1188/16Dec2022) also assesses the Attitude of new ringing recruits. I have re-ordered and slightly reworded his original example responses to “why does this person want to learn?”

    1● they have read up about it on the internet, watched some YouTube clips, and think it sounds fun
    2● they need a new challenge for their Duke Of Edinburgh (DofE) Bronze Award
    3● they have always wanted to learn to ring and now have the time
    4● they’ve heard that the church is desperate for people to help keep the ancient bells ringing
    5● they’ve heard it involves lots of beer and they fancy a laugh
    6● they are not sporty but want to get involved in a team activity


    Philip also asks will they fit in with the band? How fantastic to have an intelligent 15-year-old learning, but if the rest of the band are all over 75 how long before they feel they don’t fit in? Some are fine with old people: some aren’t!

    On answer 2, young people could be starting on DofE and on bellringing without fully comprehending either. It is up to ringing teachers to make the ringing more fascinating and more challenging, and capturing their learner's interest more than their other DofE activities do; so that’s an excellent reason the start ringing imho.

    Other RW responses suggest we welcome learners who support the traditions of ringing (answer 4) and the social aspect of being with other ringers, whether accompanied by beer or not (answer 5), will be an important aspect of retention.

    It is these three (2, 4, 5) that Philip suggests are poor reasons to start ringing. Discuss :-)
  • John Harrison
    433
    there are obviously several motivations that might lead to initial interest, some of which aren't likely to lead to long term commitment and success. But it's possible for the motivation that gets someone through the door in the first place to be changed by the subsequent experience, so the onus is on us to make sure that the early experience converts limited initial motivation into a more persistent motivation and long term commitment.
    That won't always be possible, in which case it would be sensible to be open about it and provide exit opportunities that avoid wasting both tutor's and learner's time and loading the band with opportunity costs that are unlikely to pay off.
  • Steve Farmer
    19
    Absolutely true and something I have been saying for a long time, and when it comes to needing new ropes, maintenance , repairs who is going to pay for “our” hobby .. ringing is definitely the cheapest activity that I do by a long way, and therefore I give my time willingly to help others to help me continue to do it ..
  • Lucy Chandhial
    90
    I think the original article highlighted the different approaches to the future of ringing.
    On the one hand there is an aim to have active towers where ringers can enjoy progressing to exciting methods or excellent called changes as a purpose in itself, an enjoyable hobby using high quality skill. On the other hand there is an aim to ensure church bells can be rung regularly for services to a good standard.
    For lots of ringers these two cross over and they ring for services, sometimes with limited numbers and limited chance to use their skill but on other days or at other towers they get the challenge of stretching their skills with a band of ringers who want to learn new methods and / or focus on perfect striking for the best music.
    Part of what holds us back or part of what needs to be debated in the Ringing 2030 plan is how we balance the two aims as they do make a huge difference to how you recruit, teach and approach ringing.
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