Ringing Forums

I can ring both grandsire and bob doubles ... my regular tower rings a fair amount of surprise minor and major. — Oliver Lee

Does Plain Minor feel as comfortable? Ropesight on six can feel a lot harder than on five, so if that feels difficult, so will treble bob hunting.

... often ending with me being shouted at ... — Oliver Lee

Hmm, that might not be helping ...

So ringing-for-practice something that all of the band might feel unfamiliar with at first, you might try Treble Place Doubles, which has the (all are backstroke) dodges in 1-2 and 4-5 as well as a tenor behind to help with leading. :



(Saturn Doubles is the method library name, although the diagram there doesn't quite show the essence of the method)

I can ring both grandsire and bob doubles reasonably well but I personally think this might be a useful skill to learn especially as my regular tower rings a fair amount of surprise minor and major. — Oliver Lee

can you ring plain bob minor (1) on the treble, and (2) on an inside bell? And (3) what method are you trying to treble bob to?

my main issues are not being to count my place (something I have already struggled with anyway) as well as being able to make sense of the complicated rope sight which this entails. I — Oliver Lee

I'm surprised you describe the ropesight as complicated. Think of Treble dodging is hunting with a reverse step every other backstroke. You meet the bells in the same orde as plain hunt but you do a doge with every other bell you meet. So you meet new bells half as often.
But I wouldn't start by thinking about ropesight. The essence of hunting is to make big changes to the speed you bell swings. If you can do that you will be more relaxed about seeing the other bells as you pass them. If you get the speed change right at the start (say from 1st to 2nd place) just ringing the next few blows at the same speed will get you to roughly the right place regardless of seeing which bells you pass. But if you can't make and maintain the speed changes you will contantly be struggling to get to the right place.
Treble dodging is harder than hunting because you don't get long runs of half a dozen blows at the same speed, you have to keep changing between fast and slow, which is harder to do accurately. But there is a regular rhythm, with reverse steps every other backstrokes. So hunt three blows then reverse for one, and repeat.

Suggest you start with bastow minimus, ringing the treble but with the 2nd as the hunt bell. Then do exactly the same again for bastow minor, so dodging in 3-4 then 5-6 up, followed by 5-6 and then 3-4 down. Then simply try treble bob hunting which includes the 1-2 up and down dodges (ok, it has repeated rows but you're trying to learn a new skill). Once that's sorted nothing better than say three leads of Kent or Oxford on the treble next. After that it's to infinity and beyond.
Plenty more where this came from so please ask if I can help.

Try 'ringing' it on the stairs at home: Number the hallway 1 and the bottom 5 stairs as 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6. Then walk it through on the stairs. Going upstairs equates to ringing slowly, going downstairs relates to ringing quickly. To make it harder, allocate one foot as handstroke and one as backstroke. This will help you to see that the backstrokes go back the other way to make the dodge. NB please be careful, and I'd recommend not trying to turn round on the stairs, but to come back down to lead backwards. If you have no stairs it can be practised on the flat. It helps to keep you fit too :)

If you have the chance to treble to a plain method on 6 in the tower first, that will enable you to get used to managing ropesight on 6 before you have to worry about putting in a lot of dodges. It's quite a big jump to try to do both at the same time. The other ringers will be something easier too so they may not get so shouty if you go wrong!
Meanwhile, if you want to press ahead, and you have a suitable computer, have you downloaded ABEL yet? If you put it in "moving ringers" mode, then the ropesight is a pretty good simulation of what you will see in the tower. You can slow the ringing right down and watch which bells pass you, and this may help you to see clearly what it going on. The great thing about ABEL is you can ring whatever you want, as slowly as you like, and nobody will shout!

" I have had some several hit and miss attempts when I have rung this (often ending with me being shouted at!). my main issues are not being to count my place (something I have already struggled with anyway) "
Several points here. The first on is your struggle to count your places. You say you can ring Plain bob and grandsire ok - is this on the treble or inside? If on the treble, it's quite easy to plain hunt over all the bells slowly, then do the same quickly and lead, without really counting which place you are in. You will certainly need to be able to count which place you are in if you are ringing inside. Do you know why you are struggling with this? Are you thinking of the number of the bell you are following or trying to memorise the order? It's difficult to remember 2 numbers at once, so try not to think of the number of the bell you are following. If my learners are struggling to count where they are, I get them to count out loud. If they then find it hard to see which bell to follow, I will point it out, but NOT say the number as this can make them lose count. Also, don't count which place you are in too soon, as this can lead you to count the next place too early. Count as your bell strikes ie nearly at the ends of the pull, or if you do count as soon as you pull off, then make it slow - ie seconds said really slowly so it lasts until almost the start of the next pull (this is hard to explain). Practice counting when standing behind someone. or on your own going up and down stairs.

The advice Rosaling gives above is good, about ringing the treble to plain minor first to help with ropesight. Watch people's arms and try to find the one whose arms are closest to matching where yours are. I don't watch ropes- I watch the position of hands and arms.

Someone also said about treble bob on 4- this is also good. I would also start by doing Treble Bob Hunt on 4 and then 6 as the bells come in the same order as plain hunt which will help with the ropesight.

If you have not rung Plain Bob inside yet, you will also need to work out how the dodges work. A dodge is a change of direction for ONE BLOW ONLY. So in teble bob, ignore for a moment the dodge on the front as that starts half way through the dodges. So you plain hunt to 4ths place, which is at handstroke, so the dodge is a quick blow at backstroke. If you can't see who to ring after, just ring a bit quicker for ONE blow. This is your 3/4 UP dodge - because you are going UP to the back. Then hold up for 3 blows -4ths, 5ths 6ths -another handstroke. You can now dodge 5/6 UP, so another quick blow for 1 backstroke. If we are treble bobbing on 6, then you do your 2 blows in 6th place before starting you DOWN dodges. So it's a quick blow at hand, before holding UP and back for the dodge into 6ths place. Now you can start to hunt down to 3/4. So it's quickly to 5ths, 4ths and 3rds - which is the handstroke. Then hold up to take a step back to 4ths. Try and think of the dodge as ONE blow only as a change of direction on the backstroke. Good bell control is vital - you cannot move the bell about frequently without it, so it can be useful to ring on your own with someone else counting the places, and you change direction when needed. So you ring slowly as they count 2nds, 3rds, 4ths then as they count 3rds you ring quicker. Or you can count out loud as well. No ropesite needed!

Finally, about being shouted at. This is difficult, because it is sometimes hard to correct someone without raising your voice. It needs to be done quickly or the touch will disintegrate (it's easy in TB to go the wrong way or get at the wrong stroke), so can often sound abrupt which is not usually the intention. They often need to speak loudly to be heard -especially if you are looking the wrong way, as is sometimes the case. It is best to have someone behind you to correct as needed and make sure they tell all the ringers to try to keep quiet if you go wrong and leave it to the stander. Unless they are abusive it is not usually done with malice, especially if they know you are learning. I have hardly ever (can't really remember an occasion) when a learner is shouted at maliciously, though it can happen. It's usually reserved for an experienced ringer who should know better.

it is sometimes hard to correct someone without raising your voice. It needs to be done quickly or the touch will disintegrate — Sue Marsden

Agreed, but the tone and intent still comes across very clearly, even if the volume is necessarily high.

I have hardly ever (can't really remember an occasion) when a learner is shouted at maliciously, though it can happen. — Sue Marsden

I have, both as a target and as a bystander. It's much worse than just being ineffective as a form of "help", it's the exact opposite and it's guaranteed that the target will have even more difficulties afterwards. If it's directed at me I calmly ask the shouter to stop, and if they don't, I'll set my bell and leave.

It's usually reserved for an experienced ringer who should know better. — Sue Marsden

And it's inexcusable even then. One of the most reprehensible bits of ringing "culture" is this behaviour, although it is a small number of ringers that indulge in it and seems to be getting less common over time, which is to be welcomed.