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Philip Pratt

Has anyone successfully claimed back a grant to the value of the VAT on bell ropes where they have fitted themselves?
I'm finding that the new administrators of the scheme are saying that bell ropes need to be fitted by VAT-registered companies to be eligible for a grant under the Listed Places of Worship scheme which are the rules for bells, bell frames and fittings. The administrators of the scheme changed in July 2022 to a new team in Leicester and they only have the DCMS guidance to go on which puts bell ropes under the same heading as bells, bell fittings etc, which also have to be fitted by paid professionals to qualify.

This is a genuine question as I'm currently in discussions with Listed Places of Worship scheme administrators who are discussing this with DCMS (Department for Culture Media and Sport). Any positive evidence that I can provide to LPWS administrators will help all ringers going forwards.

If anyone has any evidence to support claims that have been paid previously please can you contact me philipatavonropesdotcodotuk or provide your contact details and or evidence in the comments.

John de Overa

Presumably this will affect replacement stays as well.

J Martin Rushton

@John de Overa If you need over £1,000 of replacement stays, might the band's bell handling be a bit off?

John de Overa

Ah yeah, I'd missed that there's a minimum of £1k. But I've listened to a few bands where I could believe that was a realistic spend :joke:

Philip Pratt

↪John de Overa

I would like to focus on bell ropes in the first instance and would like the references towards evidence to support the claim that they've not been fitted before but LPWS have previously paid those grants. Certainly, as Stays are part of a bell fitting, and the caveat is that they need to be fitted by a VAT registered contractor, that would be very much the case as we stand at the moment, however, bell ropes don't require tools to be fitted and are very much like fitting car mats designed for your car.

Philip Pratt

↪J Martin Rushton

the £1000 limit is across all eligible expenditure, so can be invoices from multiple contractors providing eligible goods and services. Also, once in a 12-month period, you can put in a claim below £1000, providing it's above £500.

John de Overa

↪Philip Pratt

You provided our ropes but that was done indirectly by Blyth & Co who did the rehang and ordered them from you for us. The ropes hadn't arrived by the end of the project so we refitted the old ones and when the new ones arrived I fitted them. But I have no documentary evidence for that.

Philip Pratt

↪John de Overa

This is an ideal case. Do you have access to the information to show that they received the LPWS grant for the VAT element, and together with it a statement saying that you fitted them yourselves? I don't need to see the information but would ask for your contact details to point the LWPS current admin team in your direction to provide the information directly to them along with your statement

John de Overa

↪Philip Pratt

all of the financial side, including the multiple VAT reclaims, was done by the PCC treasurer so we had separation and accountability. I'm not sure if ropes were itemised on an invoice although they were in the schedule of works. I can ask the PCC treasurer.

Philip Pratt

↪John de Overa

please. As like your case, it's normally the ringers that generally do most of the fundraising and co-ordination of these things and the treasurers who do the claims, the evidence will need to come from the treasurer to LPWS, but if you could check if that's the case, then this will be good evidence to support the fact they are not fitted. You could also include in the statement that whilst the ropes were supplied by a VAT registered contractor who had done extensive works to your bells and bell frame, the church recovered the VAT on all of the works including the bells ropes, despite them being fitted locally by you/bellringers as volunteers.

John Harrison

once in a 12-month period, you can put in a claim below £1000, providing it's above £500. — Philip Pratt

But that would still rule out a set of muffles, which I understand have also been confirmed as within the scheme. (And the mind boggles at the thought of requiring a VAT registered professional to fit them.)

J Martin Rushton

The normal place for muffles in most towers most of the time is in a cupboard or drawer, so would simply delivering them to the ringing chamber not count as "fitting"? Could it be shown that a subcontractor (Royal Mail or DHL for example) had performed the "fitting" at the company's direction? Just a wild, off the wall, idea from someone who is NOT a lawyer, businessman or tax expert.

Philip Pratt

↪John Harrison

Muffles seemed to be fine to recover the VAT on them. I have that in writing from the current administrators of the LPW Scheme, but bell ropes seem to fall into the category of a bell or bell frame which seems to require them to be fitted. It is to the extreme that you could pay your local VAT-registered electrician to fit them, and claim the VAT back on his charge too!

Philip Pratt

15/12/22 update.
Thank you to everyone (bellringers and the CCCBR) that has offered and provided assistance with this, as this benefits all bellringers nationwide. Collectively we have managed to pull together sufficient evidence to support the case that there is a precedence on grants being paid for mail-order bell ropes that are NOT fitted by a VAT-registered contractor. The evidence has been reviewed by the LPWS and also the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) who have agreed that grants for bell ropes will continue to be paid where they are supplied mail order and fitted by volunteers.

Should any grants have been declined since July 2022 on the basis they were not fitted, I would encourage you to speak to your PCC treasurer and the LPWS team in Leicester to revisit your claim.

We have put more information on our website https://www.avonropes.co.uk/vat.html

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