Ringing Forums

Use mini rings. It takes 5-10 minutes to learn how to handle a bell and a few minutes more to get the hang of ringing rounds.... — Derek Williams

I was wondering how long we were going to have to wait before someone said that! — Simon Linford

...With the increased availability of computer based ringing software ... — Stuart Palin

Even longer, then, for a hint of recruiting through Ringing Room (Other Online Platforms Are Available).

I wonder if there are any AccursedVirus RingingRoom recruits who have become sufficiently hooked to transfer their enthusiasm to learning to handle a bell ??

And if so, was the RingingRoom skill useful in their retention, or transferrable to their learning to ring methods in tower ??

I wonder if there are any AccursedVirus RingingRoom recruits who have become sufficiently hooked to transfer their enthusiasm to learning to handle a bell ?? — PeterScott

We have one who didn't touch a bell until afterwards. She's very keen, and her husband who doesn't (yet) ring was keen enough to go mon a maintenance course.

I'm not sure if this should be a new thread, but it does come under "Ringing Lite". Diagrams I've seen of Ellacombe apparatus shows the hammers as lying flat under the bell and when raised ro perfromance position being inside the bell's mouth. Towers that don't have Ellacombe apparatus often have clock hammers which strike the outside of the sound bow. Now the question: can the latter be used for chiming? We don't have any Ellacombe apparatus, and are suffering from a slow decline in numbers (age, sickness, lack of recruits).

This is an interesting discussion, comparisons with cycling and running have some similarities, but the learning processes require far less "effort" .. you can learn to ride a bike in your back garden, have a couple of goes, fall off and go back tomorrow, leave your front door, you can go for a run, these are outside any organised training that you may wish to attend ( aka a Parkrun ), the latter will give you confirmation on your progress with a time and support from lots of others ( Parkrun are very good at this ) , however with ringing, your first port of call is not "put a dumbell in your loft" so you can go and have a go and then leave it until tomorrow if you get bored or frustrated ( the Bike scenario ) for Tower Bells you have to a) find a teacher, b) arrange a suitable time c) go to a tower and these three things to me make it very difficult to compare the activities, you are so dependant on other people to help you, the same with Handbells, they are not the sort of thing the average interested person is going to buy to find out if they like it, financially its not a second hand bike or a pair of trainers.

I personally have no real interest in Handbells and I think they are a different skill, I struggle to see a relationship beyond the methods or changes between the two, i did manage plain hunt minor on handbells on the Mobel app one afternoon, but give me a real set and I would be hopeless I am sure - but is that because I don't have the interest in it ? .. I suspect so.

Mini Rings may create interest, but they are not like ringing in a Tower, I would like to see a study on the transfer of a learner from learning to ring on a mini ring and their subsequent transfer to a normal tower, the same as one on those who learnt to "ring" during lockdown on RR and what happens when they go and try converting the push of a button to a rope ( there are some comments above on this )

You have to create interest in youngsters and give their parents something as well to get any slight commitment from the pair, if we are looking to recruit youngsters then a "Learn to ring" week in the holidays where you basically take charge of their kids ( AKA Childcare ) may spark the interest of the parents and it's then down to the teachers to spark the interest of the kids, and you can get paid for this (shock horror!) , "Childcare" can be £60/day+ so expenses are covered and you can provide a good environment for their time and the teachers can get some compensation as well.

If its adults we want to get, then give them a reason to learn and provide opportunity, make it a family affair so they get to do something different as a family - they then encourage one another and even though you may only get long term take up from the few, a seed is sown.

"Lite" is never going to be achieved with lumps of metal that you weigh in Cwt !

This discussion has raised a number of interesting issues, and I would like to comment on some of them from my own expeience.

1) comparisons with other activities.
I'm not sure that running and cycling are entirely approipriate, as both are almost entirely physical activities, whereas ringing involves quite a lot of mental acrtivity. It is also a control activity, with interaction between the ringer and the bell. I think a better analogy is music, which also allows comparisons concerning the level of performance which is achieved. Lots of people learn to play simple tunes without progressing to more demanding pieces.

2) call change ringing.
I think the statement that Devon call changes are rung with bells below the balance id a common misconception. Do the arithmetic on a 40 minutes quarter peal compared with call changes at 32 or 33 to the minute, allowing for the handstroke gap. If call changes were rung with all the bells below the balancve, speed changes would be harder not easier.

3) teaching with bell up or down?
I have changed my teaching style so that I no longer do handstrokes on their own. Catching the sally is all about timing, and if you are doing that without doing the backstrokes, the long interval between successive catches makes timing very difficult. Once the learner is comfortable with backstrokes, I get them, with the bell slightly below the balance, to catch the sally with one hand, initially without pulling and then with pulling. There is no timing issue with this because they are continuously active. Once this is being done safely, I ask them to catch the sally with both hands. Initially there will be problems with finger and rope positions, but these can be sorted gradually. Once the are competent with all the movements, I get them to let the bell go higher until it is going balance to balance

In parallel with this I do a lot of raising and lowering. At the end of the first lesson, lowering without making coils, with me looking after the sally and spare tail end, then in lesson two coil making and raising, with me looking after the sally, so that they can concentrate on looking after the coils and I can help to control the speed. In this way they acquire competence in adjusting the tail end length, a crucial aspect of bell control.

4) use of mini rings
I don't think this is helpful, as the control is totally different if the bell can be allowed to go a long way over the balance. However, in spite of them not having stays, I have had some success teaching bell handling on light rings - Lichfield Mobile and Woodlands. These are heavy enough to give plenty of feel, and slow enough to use both hands on the sally. Before embarking on teaching a youngster at Woodlands, I asked Paul Jopp if he had had any difficulty transferring from light bells to full size bells. His answer was that it was so long ago her couldn't remember, which I think means no.

Phil Gay

John, of course I agree as regards a frame being an awkward intro to the physical side of change ringing tower bells full circle, but a frame easily allows one person to demonstrate the sequencing required in change-ringing and method-ringing in a way impossible on full circle bells without a band of helpers. In the latter example, perhaps half a dozen visitors can be enlightened, (or more in a larger tower), but in my small home Ringing Room there is space for over a dozen visitors to experience the changes and methods demonstrated by the one person in the former example. When we were full-circle ringing there was barely safe room for 6 people to sit out. If someone received=s sufficient explanation to follow, say, a blue-line diagram in the hand, they can also follow a similar crib sheet pinned up at the frame. That's how I chime methods - from crib sheets! The question posed had two main strands - how to get the public interested in sounding bells, and how to get them ringing full circle. We need to introduce people to bell ringing by any practicable route, and the on-going dismissal of frame chiming turns a blind eye to the opportunity offered by many hundreds more towers than CCCBR seems minded to utilise for recruitment.

the on-going dismissal of frame chiming turns a blind eye to the opportunity offered by many hundreds more towers than CCCBR seems minded to utilise for recruitment. — Mike Shelley

You seem to be saying there's some sort prejudice against chiming? According to Dove there are 254 towers in the UK with an Ellacombe versus 6022 full circle rings, or about 4%. It's great that you are keen on chiming but it's not realistic to suggest that it is an entry point into full circle ringing.

I'm no expert but even I have a list of over 700 towers that chime regularly. Dove''s has improved greatly in its present incarnation but it still has only a partial picture of chiming in the UK and abroad, which will expand further as information is added. It went from 7k towers to 16k almost overnight. Yes, there is a prejudice against chiming, and it has existed since around the time CCCBR was formed and CRAG missed the opportunity to correct that for the next few generations! Anything that gets people into bell towers is an entry point to the sounding of tower bells. Anything that exposes people to the insides of belfries is an entry point into full circle ringing, even if, at a chiming tower, it is one stage removed from someone walking into a full-circle tower directly. People only get into full circle ringing if they have an interest in sounding tower bells. Ostracising chimers and their towers from recruitment initiatives continues to shoot ourselves in the foot!

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. Claiming that chiming is a major, missed source of recruitment for full circle ringing is I believe an overreach.

Fine, I agree it's not a "major, missed source of recruitment", but to ignore it completely is STILL a missed opportunity! PAX!

To put emphasis on the word "Lite" does in my view, not help. Ringing is about long graceful strokes keeping the rope taught, finishing the back stroke pointing the hands downward to keep the rope straight. A bell rotating 360 degrees takes little effort, and it is this that needs to be taught. Slightly heavier bells naturally ring slightly slower, giving a learner more time, so can be easier to learn on.
Once I've explained how it works, and done a demo, I start with the learner holding the back stroke,(as explained before I pull off,) for the first few blows, I rest my hand on theirs so their hands go up and down at the correct time in a graceful manner, not stopping at the top. Normally after 6 or 8 blows, I can remove my hand, and they have the correct timing.
Never let go of the tail end (unless stay is broken) always let go of the hand stroke whilst ringing.
Handstroke - I ring the back stroke, the learner keeps their hands down in front of them in the middle, and brings them up to catch the sally at the same time I do, catching the sally on the way up, (as it bobs) pull down and let go, and keep telling them as the sally bobs, "catch on the way up, pull down and let go" and give advice "Too soon, too high" etc.

I learnt to ring on both tower and handbells at the same time. By the time I could handle a tower bell properly I could ring 1-2 to Plain bob minor. This taught me a great deal about the method so when I could handle my bell properly I knew why I was trying to dodge etc. I also found seeing when the treble was leading easy, and knowing where I passed the treble very helpful. I also knew more about the method than just the blue line.
The main advantage was that we rang handbells several times a week, while tower bell practices were once a week.
If you have a band who can follow up with handbells I have found it a good way to ring. It gives confidence and shows that method ringing is not too hard. We have taught several people to ring, and the people who found it easiest did not ring tower bells.
Ringing all pairs to plain hunt or ringing three leads of plain bob is a great achievement that some people can manage in a couple of sessions. It can lift the spirits of those struggling with bell handling, and at least they know what to look for in the tower.

Yes, there is a prejudice against chiming, and it has existed since around the time CCCBR was formed and CRAG missed the opportunity to correct that for the next few generations! — Mike Shelley

Do you ring full circle as well Mike? And do you subscribe to The Ringing World?

Yes and Yes

I think the statement that Devon call changes are rung with bells below the balance id a common misconception. Do the arithmetic on a 40 minutes quarter peal compared with call changes at 32 or 33 to the minute, allowing for the handstroke gap. If call changes were rung with all the bells below the balance, speed changes would be harder not easier. — Phil Gay

When you always ring below the balance, the bell is always acting as a pendulum, controlling its own rhythm and naturally keeping perfect time. The ringer never needs to hold a bell on the balance, only to keep the pendulum from losing momentum. Changing position does require additional skill with both styles, except not the need to hold on the balance with Devon-style.

It would be good to conduct an experiment where you take two equivalent groups of non-ringers and teach each style with the same amount of rope time over the course of a week, then compare the difference.

Yes, there is a prejudice against chiming, and it has existed since around the time CCCBR was formed and CRAG missed the opportunity to correct that for the next few generations! — Mike Shelley

The vast majority of CC members will have had no experience of chiming, nor I imagine the CRAG team. How is the prejudice experienced, what could CRAG have done about it, what benefit would accrue, and who could champion the cause now?

I taught myself to ring “from the bottom up”.
A local tower has, in my relatively short association with it, had about 20 learners, being taught with the bell up, and the looks of horror on the faces of middle-aged ladies, as the red & white express train hurtled out of the tunnel says it all. Needless to say, none of the learners went on to ring plain hunt competently, and none of them now ring.

Additionally, in Dorset, we have many small villages with rings of 6 of about 15cwt and above, and whilst certain very experienced ringers extoll the virtues of these rings, local bands are virtually non-existent, owing to the difficulty of teaching would-be ringers, and having taught, particularly young ringers, who require mental challenge, the attempted progression to Cambridge S Minor on a 15cwt 6 quickly blunts any enthusiasm.

Solution: Melt them down, and have a 6cwt 6 cast, selling-off the excess metal to assist in funding the operation; giving easier handling, and the potential to progress to change-ringing.

PS: I am renowned for my controversial views!

as Graham says, the mechanism when ringing below the balance is different from when ringing over the balance. Timing is controlled by how high the bell swings rather than by how long it pauses beyond the balance. The former is inherent in the bell's energy (guided by the ringer but stable) while the latter is much more dependent on the accuracy of the ringer's action at each stroke.
The idea that you can't change the speed below the balance doesn't hold up since heavy tenors are rung below the balance. The technique is different but it's certainly not impossible.

The idea that you can't change the speed below the balance doesn't hold — John Harrison

I must confess I've been puzzled by this bit of the discussion. I went on an advanced bell handling course where it was explained that for a ring of bells the light bells might be having to ring up to the balance at the same time as the heavy ones were completely below the balance, because of the difference in weights / sizes / swing periods.

Yes and Yes — Mike Shelley

which did you try first?

First check-chimed and swing-chimed a small estate bell in late 1950s; learned the uses of the bell, including start/stop work in the fields, fire alarm, assembly, etc (can't remember them now bit I think there were 4-5. First swung-chiming of a full circle bell, (and a dip into the tower copy of RW), also in the late 1950s but after the estate bell.

Graham, you pose some interesting questions, but this discussion theme isn't a suitable place to expand. Ringing World printed some of my thoughts in 19/5/17(p.503) re CRAG; 24/7/20(p.731) re prejudice; and 30/10/20(p.1066) re myths about chiming. Thanks for your open mind!

Chorley, Lancs, introduces about 10 students per year to tower bells through frame chiming and even Dove's Guide has now included a few thousand additional towers where chiming is the norm. — Mike Shelley

Mike - what are the retention rates either within chiming or change ringing? If I am honest I am with John:

It's great that you are keen on chiming but it's not realistic to suggest that it is an entry point into full circle ringing. — John de Overa

but I am trying to keep an open mind, because I have no experience of this other than occasionally seeing an Ellacombe chime in the odd ringing room...

Jason,

this thread is getting way off the point of the original posers. ANY way of getting people interested enough to start sounding tower bells is an entre to eventual full-circle ringing.

Questioning the success rate of any one element of the many recruitment routes is just a symptom of the range of problems existing in "ringing" today.

I doubt anyone has a handle on how many people have got into FCR from chiming or handbell ringing or chime bars or whacking tin cans with a stick, but then, non-one knows how many people are joining FC bands by ANY route, or how many are leaving the exercise and why.

The place of chiming in the history of tower bells is indisputable, but it is constantly rubbished by the dyed-in-the-wool conservatives who "defend" the inner sancta of FCR.

Anyone that truly has an open mind should be asking loudly, "why isn't CC opening its arms to all tower bell towers?" This is the C21st!

constantly rubbished by the dyed-in-the-wool conservatives who "defend" the inner sancta of FCR. — Mike Shelley

You keep repeating that but I've seen no signs of it here, people have just shared their opinions and pointed out some issues. I assume you've have had bad experiences elsewhere (RW?) but I don't think it's relevant to keep re-airing them here.

I agree. However, RW can publish a little on any topic, but where, other than here, can small voices be "heard" even if CC isn't "listening"?

this thread is getting way off the point of the original posers. ANY way of getting people interested enough to start sounding tower bells is an entre to eventual full-circle ringing. — Mike Shelley

(sic)

Mike - I don't think this is off topic at all. The reason for my line of questioning was because I was genuinely interested in how you were getting 10 recruits per annum in through the door. I am sure a lot of towers would be very happy with that. And I was trying to understand whether the recruits are a different breed of people, for example, does the cohort that you recruit have a higher degree of musician/pianist/organist amongst them? What is the nature of the conversation that gets them to turn up? In a tower with bells hung for change ringing but no band what does that look like. I've never come across it so am just trying to understand it. And in my humble opinion, if you wrote an article for the RW, I would think they would publish it...

You’d be very welcome to share your list with the Dove team and we’ll add an ellacombe apparatus/clavier flag to any towers that are currently missed out.
Just drop us an email on doveatcccbrdotorgdotuk

I would suggest Ringing Room as an answer to the original question. (Other online ringing platforms are available, such as Ding.) Ringing Room has a very low barrier to getting started. People can join in from the comfort of their own home and make an authentic tower ringing sound very easily, just push a key at the right time. I know Ringing Room isn't anything like tower bell ringing, but new recruits won't be bothered by this – they haven't yet learnt to ring tower bells. Ringing Room allows them to learn listening skills, good striking, ringing by places and learning/practising method lines, which are all skills required in the tower as well. The additional skills needed to be able to move from Ringing Room to tower bells are handling a bell (obviously), ropesight and rhythm. (Ringing by rhythm is partially achievable in Ringing Room with a good band and fast ringing, but it's nothing like tower bells.)

Ringing Room is much more reliable these days than when it was first introduced. This is due to improvements on the technical side and a much reduced load on the servers. I still run a weekly Ringing Room practice to help tower bell ringers learn the skills of ringing by places, achieving good striking by listening, and practice their method knowledge. It's also a good social occasion to meet up with ringers you wouldn't otherwise see very often, if at all. If you haven't tried it recently, or at all, I can strongly recommend giving it a go. It can also be used to supplement bell handling practices for new recruits. Please don't be put off by it being "nothing like tower bells". Handbells are nothing like tower bells either, they're just a different "platform" for ringing and this is what Ringing Room is – an alternative, and entirely different, platform for ringing on. Lastly, being an online virtual platform, Ringing Room is an excellent way to engage the younger generation in ringing. They live a lot of their lives online and ringing in the virtual world will seem completely normal to them.