Ringing Forums

Thank you. Of course I have now found my copy, which was probably sent to me by Roger too.

I would echo the use of Google or Microsoft forms which you can use to collect data by e-mail and export this to a Google sheet or Excel worksheet for further analysis. There are also some useful pre-built graphs on the results page of each application.

Do also talk to people beforehand to find out what the likely responses are, so that you can populate tick box questions. These are far easier to analyse than free form text.

You can also look at previous Guild/Association surveys to get a feel of what questions to ask and likely responses that you will receive. See the attached surveys carried out in Kent in 2017 and W&P in 2019. I still have the Google form from the 2019 survey and can send it to you if you wish, to avoid the need to re-key the questions.

With respect to encouraging participation, remembering John Harrison's excellent regular coverage of FirstPeal2015 in the Ringing World, perhaps a monthly update in RW of which areas of the country/world have responded, might engage local associations and help to motivate the towers.

Will do, I'm busy today but will try to get it done by the end of the weekend.

Like @Rebecca Banner I haven't managed to read all this thread yet (but hope to beause it looks very good!) so laos apologies if I repeat. But I think depending on the sorts of questions being asked, it ought to be possible to get small enough units to survey, branches and districts, such that across that unit a complete picture could be got, just by asking around or doing a few visits. We do have a complete database of towers, and can map those to the smallest unit of organisation that they are in.

It would need everyone to buy into the value of this, and then associations to help make sure it got done.

Thanks to @Tristan Lockheart and @Jason Carter for taking this on.

I’d be happy to be a guinea pig for a survey with the Middlesex Association N&E district if that helps (despite being fairly small and urban so not the most challenging area). — Lucy Chandhial

Thanks, Lucy, I'll keep that under consideration. I suspect the N&E would be suitable as one of three trial areas for the survey; we need an "easy" area because it may have its own challenges which might not be found in dissimilar areas.

I have recently discovered through my own work with my local guild that if you use Google Forms as a way of eliciting information, the responses received can be automatically added to a google sheets spreadsheet - and once it is set up it is live and any future responses get automatically added also.
It is an easy matter to send a link to the Form to mass recipients on an emailing list - many Guilds/Associations have them. I do appreciate tha this will not necessarily reach the traditionally unreachable, but maybe it would be a start. — Rebecca Banner

Even for the ‘off grid’ towers there is usually someone who has some contact and can give an idea of the size of the band, ringing standards and frequency of ringing. — Lucy Chandhial

Yes, I've found Google forms to be quite nifty over the years. All the central team would have to do is create a copy of the form for the district, then send the link to the district/branch to work their magic. There is a function to create a printable version of the form, which district officials could send to those who are off the grid. District officers could then input them back into the e-form. Alternatively, this could be done as a telephone interview; whatever suits local needs.

We do have a complete database of towers, and can map those to the smallest unit of organisation that they are in. — Simon Linford

So do we have details of the towers in each district and branch?

I'm happy to embrace a google poll, it will be good to embrace something new :blush: can you guide me as to whether there is a limit on the number of 'answers' that you can have to a question? Obviously we cant go bananas but could we have 10 possible options for example? (if we want to get quite detailed on 'ages' or give a fairly detailed breakdown of what is rung on a sunday rather than just R&CC, PB, Grandsire and Surprise. btw, 10 may be too many options but I'm just trying to understand the art of the possible.

The 1988 survey picked a weekend that was kept under wraps and released at the last moment (the aim being to not distort results by people turning up to swell the ranks on that day i.e. to survey 'normal'). 's Kent survey above looked at ringing during a chosen "ordinary" month of November i.e. avoiding holidays and big events e.g. Easter. I was thinking about just asking what is "normal" for the tower, but I wonder whether there is a risk of this approach giving an overly optimistic view of what is normal. Thoughts welcome about what period the survey questions should be examining.

I still have the Google form from the 2019 survey and can send it to you if you wish, to avoid the need to re-key the questions. — Roger Booth

Yes please Roger, as I start to scratch the surface of this I am beginning to realise that defining the right questions is much harder than I first thought. I have about 30 questions, but I think nearly all of them need refinement...

I probably haven't scratched the surface yet in what Google Forms can do! As far as I know there isn't a limit to the number of answer options for each question you ask. You also have the option to do multiple choice (user can only choose one option - good for consenting for their information to be used); check box answers, where the user can choose multiple answers; drop down boxes; short or long answers - for user inputted text; you can have a grid of tick boxes, or a linear scale. You can keep all the questions on one page, or multiple pages, and I think (not 100% sure) you can have a countdown of how far through the form you are (esp. useful if you use multiple pages.)
As has been mentioned, the trick is asking the right questions. Balancing getting enough information with making it not too long a questionnaire that people get bored part way through. (Just a thought that has occurred to me - is it worth offering an incentive to fill it in such as entry into a raffle for a prize? People do like to feel that they might get something back for the time they have spent filling it in.)

So do we have details of the towers in each district and branch? — Tristan Lockheart

This is a start: https://dove.cccbr.org.uk/dove.csv?geo_region=1&bells=3%2B&ringable=1

Good idea, I'm in.for a survey and co-ordinate in my district.

I've given you access to a copy of the original survey questionnaire. You should have received a notification to this effect from Google. Please feel free to make a further copy in your own drive and edit accordingly.

I'm part way through cleaning up a plain text version of the two PDF files containing the survey report that were posted earlier, does that have value or am I duplicating something that already exists?

Doesn't sort by Distrct though does it? I can ask the Dove team if that data is stored

No, I couldn't find a column at that level, just Association. It might be in the database.

The other thing that would be of interest is tower contact details, but I suspect that might have to be obtained directly from Associations, and that might have data protection constraints. The other option would be to scrape it from association websites, where the details are public.

Yet another reason for a direct membership organisation :wink:

This is a start: https://dove.cccbr.org.uk/dove.csv?geo_region=1&bells=3%2B&ringable=1 — John de Overa

Unfortunately, the Dove dataset only goes down as far as association-level as far as publicly available data goes. @Simon Linford if you could ask the Dove stewards, that'd be great. Otherwise, if the Steward & Management or Historical & Archive workgroups don't hold such data, then I suspect such a dataset doesn't exist. In which case, we would have to compile a dataset by requesting information from associations and merging it with the Dove dataset.

The other thing that would be of interest is tower contact details, but I suspect that might have to be obtained directly from Associations, and that might have data protection constraints. The other option would be to scrape it from association websites, where the details are public. — John de Overa

Well, if we are using local officers, then they would be contacting their own tower contacts who will have consented to being contacted by their local guild. Otherwise, individuals could probably use annual reports etc. of their own associations. Either way, it's not going to be the Central Council asking. It will be local individuals asking people to contribute to a national project.

Yet another reason for a direct membership organisation :wink: — John de Overa

Quite! Finding the appropriate information looks like it might be quite fun....

n which case, we would have to compile a dataset by requesting information from associations and merging it with the Dove dataset. — Tristan Lockheart

I've had a look at three association websites round here, they all have lists of towers including branches so I expect most will have, nationally.

One other wrinkle that occurred to me is that some towers are in more than one association, so some deduplication would be needed.

I've given you access to a copy of the original survey questionnaire. — Roger Booth

Thanks Roger, I have copied it into my (new) Google Forms account.

↪John de Overa
if you don't mind doing that John, it would be useful to have. I don't want to miss a question out that we later regret not having an answer to. — Jason Carter

Here you go:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZlmtNf52veNZoVuUkH-bNt7Jq_hycpQg

What's rather depressing is that all of the problems that were identified 34 years ago still seem to be endemic.

One significant change is the average age of ringers. One thing I am confident about is that the average age of ringers will not continue to increase indefinitely.

Attached is a copy of the W&P 2019 report in Word format. Phil Barnes or Doug Davis may be able to provide you with a word version of the KCACR one.

Here is a link to a Google spreadsheet that I did some time ago linking to Guild and Association websites and the e-mail addresses of their contacts. Also there is a second tab listing Branches/Districts and e-mail addresses for their officers:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hV2NIFaiTA96kp-Gsb3A8TuPu6uN7vptOU-veqgIZJk/edit?usp=sharing

It was done for the Ringing Foundation and ART around ten years ago, so needs updating, if someone wants to take on this and make a copy on their Drive, and updated version would be useful for communicating with and sending out questionnaire links and other things to Branch/District officers.

One thing I have found is that generic e-mail addresses and website URL's don't change much. However, where contact is by webform these are not kept up to date, so any e-mails you send are often not responded to.

Here you go:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZlmtNf52veNZoVuUkH-bNt7Jq_hycpQg

What's rather depressing is that all of the problems that were identified 34 years ago still seem to be endemic. — John de Overa

Hi John, apologies if I am being thick but I cant see a spreadsheet...?

it's the full report in a form you can cut and paste the tables from into a spreadsheet, if you use fixed width column mode. I don't know exactly which bits you are looking for, there didn't seem much point in guessing! :grin:

ok, thanks John

if you have any problems, let me know what bits you need and I'll copy them into a spreadsheet.

Thanks for sharing this; it will be most helpful. Webforms are certainly a minefield - many places never seem to check whether they still work or go to the appropriate people.

One other wrinkle that occurred to me is that some towers are in more than one association, so some deduplication would be needed. — John de Overa

Yes, the data will need to be cleaned a little. In reality, as not all associations will survey at the same time, it could prove interesting to see changes over time. They just need to be identified as belonging to the same tower.

One significant change is the average age of ringers. One thing I am confident about is that the average age of ringers will not continue to increase indefinitely. — A J Barnfield

More through the laws of nature than efforts to turn the demographics around!

I have volunteered myself to do a survey for Southwell and Notts this year so this thread is of great interest. I am not intending to reinvent the wheel and will be happy to pitch in and help where needed with whatever we come up with. My only comment at the moment would be that whilst Google Forms is great, we probably need a paper based back up to send to people who are not computer literate (we have many towers who would run a mile from anything done on a computer)

no problem we will create a paper version too, and thanks for the offer of help.