Ringing Forums

I found it too intense and put it on the back burner!

If you were asked that question, how would you answer? — Vicki Chapman

Perhaps invite them to take photos and write an article about their visit - for the tower, the cathedral and for the Cathedral Music Trust. See if you can find a connection between ringing and singing. How many ringers are/used to be choristers? Is there a connection. Three of our ringers are in the church choir, although I appreciate that at a parish level the relationship is quite different.

It might be sociable, good for toning the arms, mentally stimulating, a means to celebrate local and national events etc. but have we really moved so far away from the original purpose that bells were hung in church towers that ChatGPT did not come across mention of ringing as a service to the church? Has that connection gone or are we too embarrassed to mention it? — Mary Jones

Could it be possible that for the majority of ringers "calling people to worship" (I hate that term) is not their raison de etre? They enjoy ringing for all the reasons you mention, which includes Sunday service ringing, and many do so at several churches each Sunday, but go about it modestly as part of their enjoyment in ringing. I am a champion for announcing the presence of the church in my community but I am ringing to mainly not practising Anglicans although I know that the sound of the bells brings comfort to many parishioners.
We are always ringing to the service of the church whatever the occasion, not just for services, because we do so with the church's permission, and people can't avoid hearing the bells, so I don't think service ringing needs to be singled out. Fee advertising!!!
Having said that, we do expect our ringers to ring on Sundays, but let's admit it, we ring because we enjoy it. The reason for things exisiting changes with time. If ringing for service was our main purpose there would be precious little ringing!

At the end of 2022 we decided to introduce a charge, or what is now commonly called a donation, for training in ringing.
This was set at an amount per lesson for 10 lessons, but a first lesson is free to determine interest on the part of the learner, and a capability assessment by the tutor.
Lo and behold, by co-incidece, someone contacts us because their son wants to learn. Email discussions ensues to explain what is involved and a meeting is arranged for them to tour the tower. (That already ticks off a few boxes in the LTR scheme before the student even touches a rope). The outcome - the student gets an intense 1 hour lesson weekly and also attends our weekly practice night, where, after 4 lessons he is ringing Rounds with help.
Anyway, it was made clear before we met that a donation is requested. This contributes to all teaching materials, (LTR books are given to the student as part of the package), tuition by an LTR accredited teacher, and a whole load of encouragement, which of course is free but a VITAL part of teaching. Oh and lots of smiles). In future, there will be opportunities for him to use the sim and visit other towers etc.
The money goes into the bell fund, the tuition, care and enthusiasm is given free of charge.
This is the first time we have done this and it felt a little uncomfortable initially - asking for money. But, the donation was forthcoming, which will contribute to our annual tower expenditure and capital projects. If the donation had not been forthcoming we would still have taught the learner but would have charged for the teaching materials. The tower should not be out of pocket! After 10 lessons we will continue FOC.
Ringers can't keep giving all the time. We have to maintain our towers and give real value to what we are doing. Pay back by ringing for church services is insufficient, especially as in our case we have only one service per month.
I think charging for tuition, with a flexible approach, is the way forward but we must be dedicated to giving value for money.

Having a strong, local presence is an advantage.
We recently gained a new learner from a nearby parish, who's parents had contacted ART, then contacted me. I emailed them and referred them to our website and FB page, which they researched before coming along to see us. He is on lesson 4 this week and has been to practice nights since day 1.
This coming week I am attending a village "Coronation Planning" Zoom session, by invitation, which has been organised to discuss the coronation weekend. Our interest is to make sure we know what ideas are put forward for village celebrations so that we, as ringers, can be an integral part of the weekend.
This morning I was approached by someone asking if it would be possible to teach a couple of youngsters.
Next Saturday I am giving a tower tour to non-ringers who won it in a raffle at our ringers' coffee morning last November. Probably no ringers from this but excellent PR!
We don't have much luck with direct advertising, personal contact is best, but continued involvement in the community and drip feeding people with information about our ringing helps maintain awareness.

I agree, we always advertise our extra ringing to the village. This is usually quarter peals, but could be ringing meetings or training events. Good PR and we usually get some positive feedback.

Cambridge is not my aim, there will (hopefully) be a number of methods along the way. And I was 17, yes it was easy and I totally get that the older you get, the harder it is to progress... But you didn't answer my question about how long your learners have been ringing? Mine are still making progress, but are they about to plateau? (Am I about to find out) that whilst they can ring rounds and call changes pretty well, they can't really hear their bell at all, and are not going to progress in plain hunting as quickly as I hope...? — Jason Carter

Json, yes, I didn't answer your question. Without a detailed analysis, 2 for 10 years,1 for 40 years with a 30 year break, One is a millennium ringer from elsewhere and hadn't rung again until last year, and the remainder less than 10 years. They have not plateaued but the climb is steep and slow. They can ring R&CC very well and enjoy PB5 PH6 and some can G5 (just). It is grindingly slow sometimes and some can't hear their bells unless they really concentrate. Then, something else goes out the window because there simply isn't enough CPU! But what is really good is the encouragement they give each other and the support they give to the tower. They are a great team, and I wouldn't be without them..

It’s even harder for someone with an alternative religion to ring for a service which calls people to prayer for a religion they don’t agree with (as an atheist I sometimes struggle with this!) — Lucy Chandhial — Jason Carter

Lucy, I'm a bit late responding as I have have just picked up on this. We have at least one atheist and one agnostic amongst our ringers. They are there to ring every Sunday. The bells don't call people to worship as such, they simply announce that a service is about to start. People will still go to church whether or not the bells are rung although some people rely on them for timekeeping and others take comfort on hearing them - including non church goers.

Why do you say this? It sounds like your band is similar to mine. I have at least 12 ringers in a six bell tower, and I'm probably (very nearly) always one, sometimes two short for Cambridge minor. Most of my learners are in a similar age bracket to yours, but most are less than 18 months into their ringing career... Whilst I am under no illusion that it may be challenging and a long road to get them into multiple minor, I am not yet sure that it is not possible. Are your learners longer standing in terms of experience? — Jason Carter

Keep following your aspirations but make sure your band is with you. Your success will depend on a lot of things coming together.
Success in a higher technical standard of ringing relies on good handling skills and understanding (not always easy for older learners), and largely on working through more basic methods and ringing them over and over. Too often ringers are thrown into Cambridge from PB6 / St Clements, and TB is rarely rung.
I learned when I was 14, it seemed easy! I was brought up on multi doubles, plain minor and TB before embarking on S. I know things are different now and resources more scarce, so a different approach is needed. Perhaps the biggest challenge is opportunity, time and most importantly committment of ringers to work hard - regular personal revision/theory and multiple practices per week!.

In our village team, out of nine ringers, two are under 40 and the remainder over 60 with a couple of those over 70. I am over 70 and ring surprise royal. My wife Sheila is over 70 and rings surprise minor. Of the rest, two can ring PB5 and 4 others are learning it. The remainder are ringing call changes and tackle PH5 occasionally. We get some help occasionally on a practice night from a more experienced ringer. Except for me and Sheila and the under 40s, everyone learned as 50 plus. If we want ringers to have a broad repertoire of Minor and Major - ours are not going to make it!!
BUT! what our ringers do have is enthusiasm and the determination to do as well as they can. They are loyal to our Sunday service ringing (although SS ringing is not our main raison d'etre because there are so few services), and we ring for community events. During this year we have visited four different tower practices as a band, been on one mini outing; we rang our hearts out for the Jubilee and Funeral, and we arranged a successful social event for our tower funds.
These ringers are important, and Sheila and I try to encourage them by giving them different ringing experiences. We are very happy to do this and the band has a great time together. Do other tower leaders do likewise for their (below median) ringers, because these ringers are what we've got and we need to make the most of it??
We are ok for the next 5 years or so. After that, I expect that we will start dropping off, so to speak, so planning for succession is our next lmid term project!!!

That's one of the structural issues with ringing - you need a thought leader at every tower to drive things forward; there simply aren't enough to go around (even perhaps only for towers with 10 bells or more). The tower leaders are probably the most important (and critical) people in ringing. We all need to be fostering leadership and organising skills, even at an early stage. — Tristan Lockheart

Completely correct. It is also the only way to plan for succession IMO

Good idea, I'm in.for a survey and co-ordinate in my district.

Have a look at this graph from our recent district survey. — Roger Booth

Thank you, just the ticket! Please may I use this as a reference document for future discussions in my area?

There are lots of talented people out there who could step in, they just need encouragement. — Roger Booth

It's just that the existing culture is very good at reinforcing itself, and is averse to change. — Roger Booth

You are right on these points but in our local area it is very difficult to get people involved, probably because the Victorian system hasn't anything to offer! (Note for self, expedite my recent enquiries!)

My experience is that few people nowadays take up ringing as it is a service to the church. It is no longer seen as a duty to their parish which means that they have limited interest in anything other than their local band — Roger Booth

. My ringing is a hobby (I hate that term!). I always ring for church services as I see that as an important part of ringing but it tends to be an "also ran", being only about 10% of my total. We never major on service ringing or church for new ringers.

The problem with the traditional system is that too few communications get down to the ringers at grass roots level. — Roger Booth

I am currently trying to promote discussion about communications in my Association.

However, it's not surprising that WhatsApp groups targeted at those with specific interests (e.g weekday ringing, training events, surprise major practices, handbell ringing, quarter peals etc) are significantly more popular. — Roger Booth

WhatsApp is an excellent platform. Currently I only use it in my own tower situation, but it is quicker and easier than email and lends itself to instant communication and interaction. It is also very flexible being able to quickly accomodate new groups/subgroups for specific projects/events.

If people can pay their subs on-line and receive regular communications about activities that they are interested in taking place nearby and which are of interest to them, ringing will flourish. — Roger Booth

I collect subs from everyone in the tower and pay online. That's the best we can do but it saves a dozen individuals submitting them. I am left with gathering cash. Not ideal and perhaps many Towers Secs would not want to do this! I am not sure if members have been canvassed about what ringing activities might interest them!

Activity would be driven in a modern bottom-up way by the membership, rather than the old rigid Victorian top-down way. — Roger Booth

In general we prefer to be lead than to lead. Your modern concept, with which I agree, requires more effort from more people, not only Association and District officers. The first step in any change is to wake up and see that we need to do it, and we are still asleep on this one!
It is important that I point out that I am speaking in general terms. In my Association there are some successful initiatives but at a local level we are still fairly Victorian. .

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but I do think it is possible to teach the steps between PB and Surprise in a more structured and "active" way. — John de Overa

I agree John, step changes for advancement. I hold sim practices every week and we practice dodging and place making which can be done quite easily in isolation but when it comes to putting in a single dodge in PB5 it is almost impossible for some. The context is different when they are ringing in a 3 dimensional virtual circle rather than with just one other bell ringing. I learned when I was 14 with a good mentor and opportunities. It makes a difference.
Ringing is a highly complex activity. I often quote Coldplay's The Scientist "...nobody said it was easy, nobody said it would be so hard..lets go back to the start..."

"Spot on there. I went on a course specifically for dynamic bell control some time ago and it helped. It still took a while to get to the "automatic" stage though, most of which was on a tower sim.How do you think the could be addressed? I think setting expectations for learners from the start is important, the problem is that sometimes it's undermined by the "bell number" brigade"

I would like to know how to address the problem too.

Simple things don't get taught. e.g.
Not looking/focussing on the sally at handstroke, which wastes time and energy and stops the ringer seeing more important things.
Taking rope at backstroke.
Letting rope out at backstroke.

I find that they understand the principle of dynamic bell control and can see it when demonstrated but are unable to put it into action on the fly. Too much to think about and lack of confidence! Being an adult learner can be a problem. Brain age and too much analysis hold can them back.

But poor skill sets aren't only a problem at beginner level. I was teaching bob calling on Saturday with ringers who can ring basic SMinor and Major. They couldn't hear the treble. They couldn't tell me which bell was making 4 blows in PB5. No chance!! Speaking generally, we are not taught to listen or watch other bells. We are not taught to write out and study methods. We go from PB6 to Cambridge6 and haven't had chance to develop and practice dynamic bell control in easier, intermediate methods. The step up from PB5 is enormous!

"One of the major factors holding back change in ringing is the high level of emotional attachment ringers tend to have to particular towers,associations..."
"This type of loyalty used to be a benefit, now it is a hinderance."
But at the moment this is all we have and without it ringing would fold. I would say that ringers in my (typical?) local, rural area are concerned with weekly practices (often shared and on a tower rota) to enjoy their ringing. They have little thought for the future of ringing and don't engage much with the Association. They are loyal to their weekly routines, which is keeping ringing going -- ftb.

"... I don't mind icing on a decent cake. But then if the cake is good it probably doesn't need icing".

But the cake needs to look attractive to non-ringers. And whilst on the subject of ringers, we tend to see ringing, and all its important facets, from our own point of view, which often can be somewhat blinkered..

It is ok to want to improve our personal ringing skills at whatever level we want and can achieve. We all want to raise our ringing capabilities and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. But I am looking at the problem from a different angle. My comments below are not directed to you personally. I think they are applicable to a lot of ringers and ringers in positions of repsonsibility.
Question: What is your main wish in life?
Answer: To be happy! WRONG answer.
Possible correct answer: I want a fulfilling job/career which benefits me and my familiy and enables me to be a constructive part of my family and community where my positive contribution will be rewarding and which will make me happy. etc etc.
Question: What do you want to achieve in ringing?
Answer: I want to ring surprise minor/major (or whatever), ring at loads of towers, ring quarter peals, be a tower captain or association officer so that I can say that I am a tower captain, or association officer. WRONG answer!
Possible correct answer (depending on what you want to do with your ringing, and delete which ones may not apply): I want to enable and develop ringers and towers by supporting their ringing, creating opportunities helping them to realise their potential, as well as ringing to my wish list. I would like to be trained in tower management and communication, interacting in my social and ringing circles so that other ringers become enthusiastic about ringing and understand their responsibility in the tower and community. I want to be part of a team structure (tower or district) which is forward thinking and pro-active as well as giving me the opportunity to reach my technical ringing potential.
I know --- It's a big ask!!!

The potential of most ringers is not being realised. This is because the leaders e.g. tower captains, district or association officers or whomever, and I am of course speaking generally, are not leaders at all and do not understand or own their responsibility for developing ringing and ringers.
Sadly, we are the future of ringing! We hold it in our hands!
It is down to us to do something about it. We seem to have no awareness of the problem or energy or enthusiasm for making sure that ringing survives.
One essential ingredient, I am sure, is communication, telling each other and the general public what we are doing and what we are going to do, then telling them again!. With all the social media platforms available there is no excuse for not doing this. At least that gets us out there! But we can't work in tower isolation, we have to come together, at least at a local level.
I know with pretty much certainty which towers in my district will not be ringing within the next ten years but we're not even talking about it! Many ringers aren't at all interested in ringing*, only their weekly routines.
*Ringing isn't only about ringing - it's also about our relationship with our stakeholders - the church, schools, parish councils, the community, each other etc!