Ringing Forums

Finally, here’s something to think about if you think you’re in with the kids because you’ve got a branch Facebook page. Charlie gets teased at school for having the Facebook app on her phone. She only has Facebook to keep in touch with bellringers. Her friends think bellringing is OK and are even a bit intrigued by it – but as for using Facebook – how embarrassing is that! — Simon Linford

I have to say I chuckled at that! It's very true; Instagram, backed up by a decent website, is more likely to reach younger people than Facebook.

But the cake needs to look attractive to non-ringers. — Phillip George

One of the tasks we have been set prior to the focus group sessions for the rebranding exercise is “ imagine yourself a non-ringer interested in learning in your area. Do some brief research and see what you find….”. Certainly in my area, the results were thoroughly uninspiring. I look forward to hearing from some others there.

When you sign up to learn to ring you are attached to a school. (you might, or might not, be attached to a local tower)
You will be assigned a mentor.
You will stay attached to the school into the medium and perhaps long term. In time you will be both teacher and learner. It is to the school that you will look for your development although of course you will probably also ring for services, weddings, peals and quarters. — A J Barnfield

Yes. Mentorship is key, as is the availability of opportunities to progress. A network of schools is more likely to achieve this than many individual towers. Focusing additional funding on these schools would allow the installation of simulators and other teaching devices; much better than whatever you can get in a 1 1/2 hours practice night weekly (or less in some areas).

↪A J Barnfield interesting that you frame the constraint on a DMO in terms of the weaknesses of local organisation rather than as a weakness of the CC per se. Your views in that direction are well known but I hadn't linked them directly with the problem of making the transition to a DMO. — John Harrison

I think a great deal of what the Central Council does already is suitable for being a DMO, or would require very little change to achieve this.

I would be interested to hear if there is any activity that can be delivered on a global level which is not being done already which people think the CC should be doing? Because otherwise, it seems that the lack of a local delivery mechanism is the main thing holding back a DMO Central Council.

You're famous now, John!

And I have no idea how you'd work you the alternate timeline! :lol: — John de Overa

Sounds like the Intelligence Section of the Central Council ought to invest in a timeline-jumping time machine!

Thanks John, that's good to know. So suppose a CC rep has an idea, but can't get the relevant committee interested in it. Can they stand up at the annual meeting and say "I think we should do xyz"? That would be my test for democracy. — Barbara Le Gallez

If you have the time, there is also the opportunity to join a workgroup, en-masse even. Most are short of numbers, and a project is more likely to go ahead if there are people ready and waiting to put the legroom. The advent of Teams and Zoom has really helped with the accessibility of the workgroups to people like me who don't have the time/money to travel all the time to get to meetings.

Older people may be motivated by other factors, loyalty, service, etc.
I remember when I met Pat Canon in 1964 he bemoaned the fact that most of his band only rang out of duty, and weren't really interested in ringing. That remark stuck with me, and I think it is very relevant. Do we want keen ringers who will ensure ringing thrives? Or do we want it kept on life support by well meaning people who aren't that keen? — John Harrison

Well, the duty aspect is declining. The sort of church which actively encourages the use of bells (tending to be more rural, more traditional in style) is the sort which is in decline; so the reason for many peoples' duty is in decline too. And perhaps younger people don't feel the same sense of duty? So, if we're relying on the people who ring as a duty, then the life-support is only a stopgap until we can make ringing truly sustainable. We're not even looking for growth at this point; just hoping to prevent further decline (which is a bit sad).

The thing is, I don't think having more democracy means much if it prevents anything from being done. I for one would be willing to forgoe theoretical direct democracy without impact in favour of impactful indirect democracy.

The best time to start was yesterday. The next best time is now.

So I would say, Central Council, keep up your great work, but you need to do something that makes you visible (or maybe audible?) to every single ringer in the country! — Barbara Le Gallez

Short of plastering the Central Council logo over anything they've had a hand in organising, I'm not sure they'll have much of a way to do this.

I suspect that there are times that I only become aware of something that concerns me by catching a comment in the Ringing World or the Presidential Blog. Is there not some way of increasing the amount of information about the CCCBR's work that gets published, and providing it in, say a monthly summary on the website - a position statement, if you will? — Mike Shelley

Certainly, I think this would be an improvement on the annual reports (and might provide an incentive for us in the workgroups to stop procrastinating)...

Perhaps the problem lies with the quality and depth of the information that gets transmitted from the Guilds etc to their members. — Mike Shelley

That's one of the problems with having membership of the CC through the TAs. Could people point me in the direction of a report from this year's AGM which they have received from their territorial associations? The feeling I get from talking to people is that much of the comms from the CC get lost somewhere between the CC and the tower.

Perhaps a sort of "dating website" for ringing might help - "Middle aged overweight balding ringer looking for like minded soulmates with GSH, for weekly fun and Surprise Minor"? — John de Overa

Something which has been suggested to me from time to time has been a website of ringing events. You could have the territorials and non-territorials posting training sessions, socials and opening ringing; competitions; individual towers could even promote their practice nights if they think they have something good worth travelling for (e.g. good progression in method ringing). Maybe 1:1 tuition could be offered too. This would all be viewable on a map which you could filter based on type of event, difficulty level, distance from a postcode, cost, date and time, and number of places available. You could maybe set it up to send email alerts too. Could create a way for good associations to get the word out about their events, and provide a way to bypass territorials who are no longer up to scratch and provide people with the information they need to progress themselves.

Although I think the CC might say "we are here to organise; we can't be the do-ers as well". — Barbara Le Gallez

I think the issue is that the Central Council is... well... central. National initiatives like Dove, the Belfry Upkeep website, and innumerous others are out there in the wild being provided by the CC and are well-used by ringers globally. But implementing things locally takes things a bit beyond that, both in terms of remit and manpower. Some might accuse the CC of interfering...

Democratic involvement in the CCCBR is not limited so much by structure as by the lack of interest of the majority of ringers. — A J Barnfield

Precisely.

• How many territorial rep posts are competed for?
• How many territorial associations struggle for candidates to take on the post of CC rep?
• How many territorial associations hold their reps to account to ensure they are adequately representing their society?
• How many workgroups are on the lookout for new members?
• Were the team responsible for setting up the Nottingham AGM overburdened with offers of help?

There are many ways to get involved, with lots of information available on the Central Council website. People wanting to exercise their democratic right need to get stuck in; and raising an issue with the Council's actions is not overly-impossible.

Why keep the bells muffled if they won't be rung? I agree that the ringing should go ahead (although limited until Monday perhaps) with appropriate quality levels.

Yes, please could we have urgent clarification as to when the proclamation ringing should be?

Certainly, I would be strongly tempted to speak to the incumbent, particularly if alternative towers would impact the recruitment/retention of ringers only. Incumbents can, in my experience, be blissfully unaware of ringing-related goings on, and ringing officials can become too set in their ways to change to meet current needs.

It sounds like you could do with a "Method Ringing Centre", drawing together all of those able and willing to teach method ringing, to get ringers in your area into methods and plug the gap now before it's too late.

Of course, you'll need leaders and organisers (don't necessarily have to be good method ringers themselves!) and people capable of teaching methods well; a simulator may also be of use. You would probably need local support from tower captains willing to refer their own ringers to you to provide opportunities not available at their home tower. Might I suggest that even if you're not an "established ringer", this ought not to be a barrier? Your local associations are probably full of "established ringers", but yet are not preventing a decline of method ringing... if you can motivate a few people with the teaching skills to join a group you lead/organise, then locally you should be able to acheive something worthwhile; maybe even become a role-model!

One of my projects over the next year is going to be surveying the state of ringing in my area. The phrase "critical mass" is something that has been lurking in the back of my mind. This was mentioned at the CC AGM too. I have a suspicion that we are nearing the failure point of method ringing in certain areas; a survey of ages and level of ringing would give an indication of how long each area has left. Some areas may be in too poor a shape to wait for @Simon Linford and co's 2030 plan, but others may be able to hold out. One thing is for certain; the longer it takes for us to make changes, the exponentially harder it will be to make ringing sustainable.

The university wanted to charge over the odds for the use of their equipment. Let people breathe - it only finished 50 minutes ago!

A single central organisation for ringing need not be incompatible with a more local association / guild / district / branch). Many other voluntary organisations operate this way with a central HQ alongside local / regional units. The enormous benefit is that the central HQ administers all the major matters like safeguarding, GDPR, insurance, legal etc, as well as the major liaison roles and PR, leaving local groupings and reps to focus on what suits the local area as is appropriate to their wants and needs. — Alison Hodge

Are you suggesting that the regional units would be part of the CC? Would they be arms-length? I would hate to be the one drawing up a transition plan, or indeed establishing a sense of authority to replace/take over the territorial societies...

Ultimately, a DMO needs selling point above and beyond what the council organises today. Those selling points would likely overlap with the territorial societies and that would cause discontent. Perhaps we need to work on keeping the associations relevant. A detailed manifesto for the role of territorial societies in the 21st century? Ofsted-style inspections to highlight success and provide support for improvements?

What are you trying to achieve? How do you administer it currently? What are your concerns? If you include the option for towers to continue to manage their band's memberships on their behalf, then I don't think there is a massive learning curve or potential for controversy.

You seem to have already introduced a fair amount of tech to the process, but for those without an online system, this can be a benefit of a DMO. Less admin for towers too if they want. Otherwise, there really is little difference; you can still give the option to nominate a home tower(s).

So if branches are still needed some other means would be needed to fund their activities. — John Harrison

I'm not sure how long it has been the case, but in Yorkshire, the branches receive a grant from the association, rather than receive the funds from their subs directly.

With no link between members and towers the idea of a territorial society would be weakened, so societies could develop fuzzy borders based not on carving up the territory but merely on how near the activity ringers need to live to be interested. And without a well defined patch of land to define them, some societies might fade away while the more proactive ones expand. — John Harrison

I would argue that local associations would still be in a much better position to support ringers than ones some distance away, even if technically feasible. A degree of natural selection may well occur, where a strong association neighbours a weak one, with people going where the activitiy is. But I would worry that losing territorial associations would lead to gaps in coverage, and with a post-local-band world, there would be no-one who is there to look after each tower and local ringers - the results of which have been seen on Facebook today.

Going one notch up the ringing structure, the question of 'direct membership' is mor usually discussed in relation to the Central Council. Post reform, it's constitution requires it every few years to consider whether the ringing community would be better served if ringers were direct members rather than being indirectly represented by the ringing societies. That would be a significant change, with potentially significant benefits. — John Harrison

I suspect that in the long run, a DMO Central Council would be incompatible with territorial guilds and associations. Getting people to pay 2+ subs would be a challenge, and the CC would need to offer something for its sub, rather than simply the 'big picture' as offered now. Sounds like a difficult ask, but as you've said, ART has found its feet. Perhaps you would need area committees or the like.

it's easy to believe there were halcyon days in the past, but from talking to the old lags, I don't think that was ever really the case - over time different bands in an area rose and fell in ability, and you always had to "get on your bike" if you wanted to progress. The issue now is that such informal "centres of excellence" are becoming rarer, and even more thinly spread. Existing areas with strong ringing aren't the problem, it's the "centres of mediocrity", or even worse "ringing graveyards" that really need the help. My concern is that it will be all to easy to direct funding and resources to areas that don't really have a problem, as they will be the easiest to identify and will be more active in pushing for funding. — John de Overa

I would argue that, whilst the latter two are the biggest problems, the presence of "centres of excellence" is not much help if people don't really know where they are and aren't getting the support to join them. But yes, I get your point about the deserts. A census of ringing skills by person and by tower is needed to provide the justification for intervention in specific areas.

What made the difference was a new TC and one returning retiree ringer - those relatively small and internal to the band changes tipped the balance. What we could do with is help maintaining that new impetus. — John de Overa

It's good to hear that you are able to progress; I imagine that there is a bulge of the sort of person who is able to help progress a band into methods around the older age groups. If we had a previous census from 10 or 20 years ago, we could see if they are being replaced as they age out. Do you think they are being replaced, or are the numbers with those skills declining?

But you relied on the good will of towers and a helpful informal mentor or three to help you on your way. A lot of luck was needed and it was all very hit and miss. I don't recall the local association being any use at all. — A J Barnfield

Sounds like Districts and Associations need to be helping with the signposting.

A couple of decades back there were still enough capable ringers who were young enough that it might have been possible to set up some formal T&D structures. Now the core of capable ringers is probably too small in number and rather elderly and in any case it looks like folk are generally trying to flog on with the old tower based model. There has been a bit of tinkering with a few clusters and some co-operation but the wholesale structural reform that was needed has not happened. — A J Barnfield

I'm not so sure I'm as pessimistic as you, but I do think we are starting to run out of people with the ability to nurture, the ability to teach, and the ability to lead. The next generation of capable ringers need to be identified and mentored just for us to stand still, let alone grow their numbers back to a point where there are enough leaders, mentors, and teachers to revive method ringing. The Young Change Ringers Association and ART both seem to be getting stuck in to meet this challenge, although there is still a long way to go.

I also agree that the old tower-based model seems no longer viable, but people are wedded to their little fiefdoms, I guess. — John de Overa

Some people seem to prefer a declining standard and roster to change, although whether it is a desire for control or simply a familiar and comfortable environment, I'm not sure.

I think it is possible to get motivated people across The Great Divide, but I think it needs to be done in a considered and structured way, in the same way that handling is now taught. — John de Overa

Yes, I have found my best progress to be on structured schemes; the traditional deep-end or just-do-it methods rarely do me much good.