Ringing Forums

what ... interview questions do you think we should ask? — Vicki Chapman

In ascending geekiness:

"How many hours each week do you spend ringing ? "(including travelling to ringing, maybe learning ringing, maybe admin/organising ringing etc)

"What ringing-apps do you have on your phone, and can you explain one to us ?"

Does your Spouse/Partner/SignificantOther ring, and were they a ringer when you first met ? How many generations of your family ring ?" (parents, grandparents, great-grandparents ..., children, grandchilden, great-grandchildren)

"How do you keep your personal ringing records (towers, peals, quarters, compositions, squared-paper-scribbles ? And have you converted to an online version ?

"How many other ringers have you rung peals with ? and on how many different days of the year ? and how many different ringers have they rung peals with, in total ?" (Refer to Pealbase) "and what is your Erdős number to [insert any famous, prolific ringer] ?"

"Do you think ringing-teachers should charge real money to those whom they teach ?"

"Do you worry about truth in ringing, and is it important ? Do you always blame the conductor for a false peal ? Should Bob Minor come round at hand ?"

"Will the Standard Eight succumb to Pickled Egg ? Do you believe in the Black Zone"

"How best to arrange that ring of eight in your bedroom ?"

From the CCCBR point-of-view, we have the earlier advice in The Tower Handbook which is comprehensive, readable and brilliant.

Safeguarding and other significant developments since Handbook's first publication in 1997 can be usefully referenced: howerver, I see no reason why we (we the Council) had any need of reinventing this particular wheel.

By way of example of a considered, balanced, softer view of one of the many elements in running a successful practice:

Should I place the band?
Some people get very heated about this. They resent not being free to choose which bell they will ring (or whether they will ring). The pros and cons are:

Pro
- Ringing master can ensure optimum support for learners.
- Ringing master can balance risk in terms of who rings.
- Ringing master can moderate enthusiasm that exceeds competence.
- Shy types get a fair share of the ringing.
- It is often quicker than waiting for volunteers.
Con
- It is more work.
- Ringing master has more responsibility (The ringing master is responsible for the overall conduct of the practice anyway, and cannot shed this responsibility by allowing a free-for-all. If an unsuitable band fires out a touch, he or she is still responsible.)
- Ringing master must know the ability of all ringers.
- Ringing master may make arbitrary allocations when personal preference could just as well have been served.

In most cases where training is the main theme of a practice, it is better to place the band. You do not have to place every rope individually. You could place some and then ask three people to fill in the remainder, leaving them to choose which they want. As a precaution, ask your ringers to let you know (quietly) during a practice if they feel they are getting left out, so you can do something about it before the end of the practice.

The case for placing the band is least in more advanced practices or where people are of similar ability.

If bands have not been traditionally placed in your tower, consider whether it would enable you to make better use of the time you spend practising. If not then don't worry. If it would, then consider introducing it, after explaining your reasons and seeking the support of the rest of the band.

And don't forget the minders. Placing the right person to stand behind someone in a touch could be as critical to its success as placing the ringers. — The Tower Handbook section 9.3 f:

Ah, but where is the joy in it all ?

I read it through in the menu's order, and here are some thoughts:

• It emphasises, and has many words, on the administrative and controlling elements of the task.
  
• An aspiring volunteer as the next Tower Captain, would be more daunted at the end than at the beginning. Is that the intention of the document ?
  
• Towards the end, the item "Building a Team" looked as if it might be offering some important advice ... disappointingly it begins with organising an Annual Meeting _sigh_
  
• "Ringers Know Their Place" is a ringer's duty in the middle of a method: it is also more generally true of the ringer's contribution to the team. In a tower band which meets regularly, we all know which of our colleagues aspire to achieve what, and where we should catch hold, or not catch hold, to best achieve that aim. The Tower Captain as team leader needs the skills and knowledge of their team to make this all work smoothly: a good team will hear what is to be rung, and the right ringers will ring the right bells as the team leader genially looks on ...
  
• ...while the document tells us 'Example announcement of next piece of ringing: “Rounds and Call changes next. “Target ringer A” please ring the 3rd and “Target ringer B” please ring the 5th. Fred, please call from the 4th. Ann ring the tenor, Bill the treble and Cath the 2nd please. After this we will ring Plain Bob Doubles for “Target ringer C” and I will call it.”' Oh dear. ...
  
• ... just by way of example, poor old Fred might well have had a whole week of rehearsing his callchanges from the 3rd. There are as many styles of Tower Captaincy as there are tower captains, and this document supports a very controlling style, which is not only hard work but misses ...
  
• ... the social element of a ringing band and their practices. The document tells us "In many groups of ringers there is a social side to the ringing" and then limits itself to social interaction outside the practice. It misses the point. Ringers attend the next practice because they enjoyed being at the last one, and enjoyed being with their fellow ringers.
  
• I see nothing about feedback - finding out how the band felt about the pactice and whether they enjoyed it - and whether they will return for more net week
  
• The document would be much improved with a softer style: useful resources for ringing first and foremost, with less prominence on control, on administration on outside liaison, and on the exceptional, which might be useful background to know but might also never occur in a five-year term as team leader.
  

I'd love to hear what the benefits [of peal ringing] are, other than bragging rights and masochism? — John de Overa

... which can be rephrased less perjoratively as

• the challenge of the performance
• the teamwork to achieve it
• the reporting of the performance for contemporaries and for future generations.

My progress through the peal ringing labrynth is in my profile from which it's clear I'm not a massive fan of the tradition. However to these benefits of pealringing, I would add

• the mathematical elegance of composing and then ringing each and every possible Triples row exactly once.
• Matching the heritage and tradition that used to justify all that expense of gold leaf on ringing-chamber peal boards.
• Giving a name to something new, as part of a commemorative performance

And, just for the record, the mathematical elegance of the challenge of Triples is one thing that the Framework did abandon in changing the rules: it allowed a band to miss out forty changes (3.I.6) and still be a peal, or indeed add on forty changes (or a hundred and forty ...) (3.J.5) and it still be a true peal. (_sigh_)

Linear extrapolation to zero is unlikely to be reliable — John Harrison

Yes, that last year with just the three peal ringers could be a bit dull ...

Year PealRingers
2013 2,723
2014 2,529
2015 2,925
2016 2,497
2017 2,404
2018 2,363
2019 2,273
...
2022 1,958 — AndrewCraddock RW p100 3Feb2023

Yes, the Number of Tower-bell peal ringers has had a constant decline since a peak of about 5,000 in the exceptional year of 1977. Continuing the rate of decline of 2013-19 to 2022 would, without the AccursedVirus, have reached 2,075 The recorded number was 117 fewer. Resuming the trend to 2030 would leave about 1,550 peal ringers by that date.

...does it matter? — Simon Linford

To help answer that, it would be fascinating to have a 'level of complexity' axis to the analysis ...

On the principle of having free Life Membership for long-serving members: imho, it's a pleasant gesture to those whose ringing-energy might be starting to decline, as well as expressing thanks for a long period of support for other ringers.

The use of subscription monies seems relevant. In Yorkshire we spend 10% on a printed Annual Report, (once over 20%). It has lots of information, which in days-gone-by would have been hard-to-come-by from other sources: nowdays it is all more accurate and timely online. We once had members' addresses, and I keep the 2017 edition to-hand on the bookshelf, as that was the last that included them: while, iirc, it was GDPR-worry that terminated the practice, GDPR is a separate issue to how we collectively appreciate long-service to the Association.

More important is the 40%, currently £4.80, that goes directly to the Bell Restoration Fund. The Fund has separate governance from the YA, as charities are required to have. Clearly we encourage all members to contribute, and that particularly applies to Life Members who do not volunteer a subscription. We might do even better for the Fund if we made it easy for all members to contribute any amount they choose (nowt to ...), with their YA subscriptions, and separate from them. That would recognise the legal separation, as well as meeting the Fund trustees' criticism that an expanding proportion of Life Members reduces the funds they have available for bell restoration.

...trying to drag the scheme into the 21st century, with an on-line signing up system — Richard Pargeter

Yes, if we did this, just for our local band, we would have an idea, say by lunchtime of practice-night, of what we might be able to ring in the evening.

Then we could offer a chance to ring PB5/Stedman7/BristolSM/... to one of the local ringers who had previously registered their interest, with the assurance of a competent stander-behind.

Similarly we could ask other local ringers who has previously registered their willingness to help, to extend our repertoire to ... if they were able to join us that evening.

That might all help with the issue that started the thread, how best to have value from the time and effort invested in ringing training.

It would need us all to make commitments-to-attend which are as firm as they are to ring for a wedding, or a Quarter or a Peal ...

In Yorkshire, after 30 years continuous membership, members can apply for Life Membership once they reach the age of 65. Also those who "are unable to continue active ringing" may become Life Members, and we have a form of honorary Life Membership for those who have "rendered outstanding service". Life Members may pay the annual fee (£12) if they wish.

There was a proposal about five years ago to abandon Life Membership, but it was not passed.

Latest blog: ...in Jersey, ‘Plough Sunday’ ...at St John’s Church, when there would be a parade of various farm animals during the service (the geese were the best)...followed by nervous cleaners.
...we are instigating Bell Sunday... 14 May, — Simon Linford

Do we parade ?? Followed by brooms made from old sallies, perhaps ??
:-)

I have improved the layout in Complib (no calls compositions need a bit of help to format neatly). — Graham John

Yes thanks, I wonder if that's a class of compositions that there would be any interest in searching for ??

And to correct my mention of Forward methods posted above:
Forward methods:

• Robert Baker Chambers Bob Major
• St Clement's College Bob Major

Not-forward methods:

• Henry Bemrose Bob Major
• Fielden Bob Major

As I said last week, these MethodLibraryUpdates are usually lonely :-) and it's a brilliant resource to have the methods on Complib, just a click away from a diagram. As my local tower doesn't have the resources to select one of the new methods every week as a challenge for practice night, I'll have to be satisfied with clicking-from-my armchair ...

I was taken by Henry Bemrose Bob which is a new, forward, Plain Major method with no more than two blows in a place. It has a normal seven-lead plain course, and it would be a really ordinary (regular) method, except that doesn't have Plain Bob leadends ..
Its name comes from the performance on Friday 13 January 2023 of 1296 changes at St Peter Derby

Named after Sir Henry Howe Bemrose, [19 November 1827 to 4 May1911], donor of the treble bell in this tower.

Looking at the blueline, it has two-bell work at the front, equivalent to five dodges: looking at Complib's Trivial Variations, there is the link to the five-dodges method Robert Baker Chambers Bob Major, which was first rung and named by the same band in their performance on Friday 25 March 2022, also of 1296 changes.

[Born on 5 January 1850, Robert Baker Chambers] was secretary of the committee responsible for the rebuilding of the tower in 1898, and donated the second bell along with his fellow churchwarden .... He was not a ringer but served as President of the Midland Counties Association of Change Ringers from 1920 until his death [on 18 April 1929]

Comparing this method with St Clement's College Bob Major, the difference is a 14 instead of a 18 as the treble passes between 2nds and 3rds place. Ringing the methods together, it would be possible to leave the St Clement's plain course without a bob, so a hour with pencil and squared paper creates a quarter peal composition with changes-of-method but no other calls.

2345678 1280 Plain Major: St Clements and Robert Baker Chambers, 29c.o.m
=======
5634278 SSSRSSS
4263578 SSSRSSS
5623478 SR
four times repeated

Complib kindly checked its truth for me: sadly I couldn't nudge it to a course-layout similar to the above. (see here - the "7A", which it wrote for itself, has confused it somehow. Hmmmmm).

To return to where we started, the composition also works to Henry Bemrose Bob and Fielden Bob Major (which is St Clements with the HB-frontwork).

...rather odd that we largely keep our plans for peals and quarter peals to ourselves... — Dave Towell

• You plan and dedicate your evening to listening to an orchestral performance
• They play for twenty minutes, and that's the percussionist's big moment ...
• ... when they miss their cue
• The conductor waves the baton, the playing stops, the conductor turns and bows ...
• ... and they all go to the pub, promising to do better next week

:-)

Yes, I enjoyed the diagrams, thanks.

I like this 1998 definition of a Double Method, with my emphases:

What is a double method? It has a special sort of symmetry. All regular methods are symmetrical - if you look at the 'blue line' you will find an axis of symmetry from which point the progress of the line is a mirror image of what has gone before. ...A double method has two axes of symmetry, so that the work on the front when the treble is at the back is the mirror image of the work at the back when the treble is at the front. In fact the whole of the work over the treble is a mirror image of the work under the treble. … Many double methods have double in their name - Double Bob, Double Oxford, Double Norwich - but some, most notably Bristol and Superlative Surprise, do not….

from the CCCBR publication The Tower Handbook 1998 ISBN 0 900271 44 2 Complied by .

The Council, in a new Decision at its 2004 meeting codified a Double Method for the first time, having relied on customary ringers’ terminology before this:

(E).A.7 - A method has palindromic symmetry if it is the same method when rung backwards, that is when the order of the changes is inverted. A method has double symmetry if it is the same method when reversed, that is when the places within each change are inverted. A method has rotational symmetry if it is the same method when reversed and rung backwards.

.
This definition survived in the Decisions until superseded by the Framework in 2018-2019, which phrased the rules as:

4.B.1. Palindromic Symmetry: A Method has Palindromic Symmetry if the same Changes result (after Rotation if needed) when read backwards, that is, when the order of the Changes is inverted.

4.B.2. Double Symmetry: A Method has Double Symmetry if the same Changes result (after Rotation if needed) when reversed, that is, when the Places within each Change are inverted.

4.B.3. Rotational Symmetry: A Method has Rotational Symmetry if the same Changes result (after Rotation if needed) when reversed and read backwards.

Double Methods, as defined in 1998, have a mathematical elegance, are artistically pleasing, help practical ringing and are an essential part of Ringing Heritage. (As an aside, the natural meaning of Double is its two-ness, and this is preserved. Also see here: }

To redefine them, and to do that - in my assessment - accidentally, is a real shame and should be undone.

Turning to 2004, there had been no earlier Decision which tried to codify a Double Method. All ringers reading that new version would, as I did at the time, think it was good-enough. It would have been better to have a proper definition of “rung backwards” to remove any ambiguity. (Brief aside here: ) The Decisions were never designed-as-a-whole and there were all manner of quirks and ambiguities in the wording and it was just-in-passing to notice this one, and forgive it ...

The new Decision then goes on to say that if you now reverse the method, and it is still the same method, then it is a Double Method. That too was wholly in line with the customary definition, while talking of the overwhelmingly predominant (then as now, see current example here: ) symmetric methods, it is saying the same thing as the 1998 Tower Handbook definition, and there was no particular reason to comment. …

But to be pedantic, that full stop between the sentences might have been better as a semicolon. And the last sentence is only worth saying about not-palindromic methods.

Then to 2018/2019: I wasn’t party to all the discussions during Framework development: it seems to me that the 2004 definition was carried-forward without analysing its probably-unintended ambiguity. Using the Framework definition has a not-palindromic method as “Double” with only (in the 1998-terminology) one axis of symmetry.

Sadly I could go on ...

These MethodLibraryUpdates seem so lonely :-)

It's a brilliant resource to have the methoids on Complib, just a click away from a diagram, and ready-to-ring.

Sadly, locally, we don't have the resources to select one of the new methods every week as a challenge for practice night. It would be fun to think that some bands might take this on, and give a user-assessment of one of the new methods each week. Maybe the RW could publish What's Hot On Complib to accompany Bellboard's hotnesses.

Best I could do was click on Sudeley Manor Bob which Complib helpfully identifies as the two hundred and forty-first TrivialVariation of Double Oxford Bob Minor.

It's just too tempting to click some of the others in the list, for example Bob Bob Minor is an assymetric three-blows method; then, less trivially, Double Danbury Bob Minor

-14-1236-1256-36-1456-1256

The place notation shows it's rotationally symmetric (14 to 36, 1236 to 1456), but not in the traditional sense, Double. First rung here. Complib disagrees with my symmetry analysis. Hmmmmm ...

And only 238 more to go ...

I hadn't expected the addiction to ringing to extend to listening attentively to a six-hour peal: I was part of the umpiring team for this peal of 10640 Double Bob Major; Mike Platt as lead-umpire had committed to listen to the whole peal, while the rest of the team were to do a couple of hours each. Mine was the early stint, and it was fascinating. Obviously we had sight of the composition to follow, a ringing-chamber camera relay to watch as well as listen, and cups of tea arrived at regular intervals. So there were no biting-winds and we didn't have to hide in the port, even so the whole six hours were enthralling.

Maybe more advertisements of performances would give us more followers. I have rung in a few quarter-peals (eg here) for specific events and have emerged from the ringing-chamber to applause and tea, and relief that it came-round. Also to the last hour of visiting bands' peals. Sadly without tea.

Here's to those who listen :-)

Philip Gorrod (RW p1188/16Dec2022) also assesses the Attitude of new ringing recruits. I have re-ordered and slightly reworded his original example responses to “why does this person want to learn?”

1● they have read up about it on the internet, watched some YouTube clips, and think it sounds fun
2● they need a new challenge for their Duke Of Edinburgh (DofE) Bronze Award
3● they have always wanted to learn to ring and now have the time
4● they’ve heard that the church is desperate for people to help keep the ancient bells ringing
5● they’ve heard it involves lots of beer and they fancy a laugh
6● they are not sporty but want to get involved in a team activity

Philip also asks will they fit in with the band? How fantastic to have an intelligent 15-year-old learning, but if the rest of the band are all over 75 how long before they feel they don’t fit in? Some are fine with old people: some aren’t!

On answer 2, young people could be starting on DofE and on bellringing without fully comprehending either. It is up to ringing teachers to make the ringing more fascinating and more challenging, and capturing their learner's interest more than their other DofE activities do; so that’s an excellent reason the start ringing imho.

Other RW responses suggest we welcome learners who support the traditions of ringing (answer 4) and the social aspect of being with other ringers, whether accompanied by beer or not (answer 5), will be an important aspect of retention.

It is these three (2, 4, 5) that Philip suggests are poor reasons to start ringing. Discuss :-)

...some ... extreme reactions to the original letter in [6 Jan 2023] Ringing World. — John Harrison

Yes: lengthy responses, some expressed combatively. A summary of some of the thoughts:

… I teach [ringing] ... to share the wonderful activity which has been a significant part of my life… I want others to experience the fun, friendship and challenge of being a ringer… We teach people to ring because the bells are part of the life of the church and wider community. … The church welcomes all, regardless of age and ability, and ... [ringing teachers] should do the same. … Ringing is a church activity and learning to ring at your local tower should never incur a charge. [Learners] come to their own conclusions about their ability ... [and] and until they decide whether ... ringing is for them, I continue to teach and support them. If [they] become a part of the local band, turn up and ring for Sunday service and are enjoying themselves, that is good ...If [they] decide not to continue ... it is time well spent helping to promote ringing and ensuring that more people in the community understand what ringing is about. … — Sally Thomas

...[While businesses] cannot waste time and valuable resources training the incompetent… …ringing has a… greater impact … in many areas of personal, church and community life. ...We are a ringing community, getting together as a team, attaining pleasure in meeting personal and team goals, and as teachers we should be supporting that. … Ringers will come and go as life takes its course. — Mark Robbins

… slow-learner who simply enjoy [ringing] at their own pace, [and] the ... stellar natural talent … all are needed, especially now. … [Give] everyone a chance, and maybe another and yet another [Teachers who] come across a natural talent, a gifted bellringer, ... should pool these talents from various towers … Much like a Centre of Excellence. — Niels Benetar

… from which reactions, there is little enthusiasm for Philip’s charging structure, or for discouraging those who find bellhandling slow-going. Some of us expressly enjoy teaching bell-handling as a ringing activity, while for Philip it was “soul-destroying” worrying at “the utter waste of time” of teaching those who soon give up.

Maybe the bellhandling needs to be separated from the mentoring through competent rounds, different bells and to basic methods.

About Philip’s worry that “Compared with when I was taught 50 years ago there are very few ‘good’ ringers around. If we don’t instill an expectation in new recruits that they are going to be good enough to take over from people like me in due course then in a generation there will be no leaders...”, there is the idea of Centres of Excellence. What else do we need, to identify and encourage these future leaders? Discuss :-)

using your own body is not a physical aid. If it were then all ringers using their hands to control the rope would be using physical aids. — John Harrison

Yes, nice debating point. ...

So, writing the composition on the back of my hand is using my body as a notepad, and that's not a "physical aid to memory", then ... ??

I suspect the real issue is that the Norm isn't as definitive as it might be

Neither ringers nor conductor(s) used any physical aids to memory during the Performance

Oh dear, all those Stedman ringers shuffling their feet ...

9. Dancing Feet Method
Rule: Mentally label your feet ‘Quick’ and ‘Slow’. When you leave the front, jump on the spot so your other foot is forward. If you are affected by a bob at the back, do another little jump to swap your feet. When you are in 4-5 down, look down at feet and note whether Quick or Slow foot is forward. Go in that way.
Usage: This is more common than you might think, including some experienced ringers.
Pros: Foolproof if you do it properly.
Cons: If you have that bad a memory you may forget which foot is which, and you might forget to do the shuffle. Looks a bit silly.

From An Authoratitive Source, here :-)