Ringing Forums

Some readers may remember that a few years ago there was a concerted effort made to have ringing recognised as a sport in order to try to access grants from Sport England (or some such). The clear answer was a firm 'no'; ringing was not defined as a sport. Since we operate what are generally the largest percussion instruments in daily use, should we not be comparing training costs with the cost of learning any other musical instrument?

John,

Many thanks for quoting 'chapter & verse' - it's all very helpful. In the example to which I referred, the trustees are not part of the Academy Trust and play no role in the management of the college. Ours is a copmpletely independent (320 year old) foundation that supports education in schools across the town. The college very generously provides a venue for our meetings. Since we are very rarely in the presence of students - then only when accompanied by a staff member - the recently introduced DBS requirement seems to be overkill. (Still it's the college's money, if they want to spend it!)

Some while ago, we used a device that measured the interval between a reflective strip passing a sensor and the moment the clapper strikes, to determine and any adjust odd-struckness in our bells. The job done, we experimented with our 2cwts treble and despite our best efforts we were unable to significantly alter the rotational speed of the bell by the application of brute force! The only way to make it ring more quickly was by shortening the stroke. Naturally, the heavier the bell, the less the effect of the brute force!

> simply having contact with children or vulnerable adults does not in itself create a need for a check. - JOHN<

I suspected that was the case. Thanks for confirming. Would the same apply to Trustees of an educational foundation that is linked to a local college? The Trustees have no involvement wih the students and on the rare occasions when they are face to face with students they are always in the presence of members of staff - typical example being a presentation by staff & students on a project the foundation has funded.

>An independant third party (tower) cannot fully assess a person based on the certificate alone and in any case it's not authorised to make any judgement without reference to the provider. Also, most ringers will not need to have DBS certificates. - PHILIP<

Yes, agreed. That highlights one of the weaknesses of the system. And in any case, if questioned, what's to stop a visitor saying "yes, I've been checked and everything's fine, regardless of the truth. When DBS checks were first introduced a church not far from me insisted that any ringers wishing to visit must have been DBS checked. This in effect locked that tower into its own private purdah.

I still wonder if any towers have actually barred a ringer.

Last week I raised a couple of questions:

1. Has any tower asked a visitor or a ringer to leave as a consequence of a negative DBS report?

2. Do churches apply the same requirements of visiting church groups (non-ringing) or visiting church choirs?

In view of the resounding silence, may I assume that the answer in both cases is 'no'?

Regarding the safeguarding of parties of visiting ringers, what requirements do churches make when a group of Mothers' Union members or a choir visit a church? Dare I presume that the same standards of care & safeguarding are required?

" what is the difference between a band of ringers booking the tower for a peal and a band of singers booking the nave for a a rehearsal?"

A booking for a concert in the church or a meeting in the hall is a formal arrangement for a fixed period and (generally) a fixed sum. A tower booking for a branch meeting, qp or peal is generally arranged on a goodwill basis and the participants may or may not choose to leave a donation in appreciation of the facilities that were provided.

It could be that the hard-nosed b*st*rds dahn sowf insist on formal bookings and fixed fees for every visit to their towers. Thank heavens for the more more relaxed and goodwill-based attitude oop norf!

Tonight we had 1 ringer +1 non-ringer made a pre-arranged visit to our tower to raise funds for their own tower renovation. Should we have demanded sight of their DBS certificates? Did we need to check our public liability policy with the church wardens and with our ringing assoc? Should we have made a fixed charge? Lighten up guys - or you risk legistlating our ringing activities out of existence!

I think this topic began by considering DBS checking for visitors and it seems to have morphed (doesn't it always!) into insurance liability and fees.

"and if they didn't it's pretty certain they would be refused permission to ring there again. - John de-Overa"

Is that a fact? Then I'd rather not ring in a tower that takes such a hard-nosed attitude to visitors. Here in North Yorkshire, visitors are always welcome. If they care to contribute to the tower fund, that's a kind gesture that we appreciate. It's not a hire fee or subject to any sort of contract, it's a free will offering.

If the village choir hires the church for a concert or the local slimming group hires the church hall, those are very different circumstances.

What do you do if the responsible person receives a negative DBS report? Has ny tower asked a ringer or visitor to leave the tower?

"Visiting ringers have to book the church and pay steepleage. - John de O"

Not in jthese parts they don't! Certainly they book a time & date but whatever they leave in return for the use of the bells is an entirely voluntary donation.

"The question of visiting ringers is particularly difficult because the church cannot fit visiting ringers into their model of bellringers as church volunteers." - Simon

This problem of a category of people not fitting with an organisation's procedural model is not confined to the CofE & ringers. I serve as Chairman of a foundation that supports a local college. For the last 28 years I have carried a 'Staff' or 'Governor' badge that admits me to all common areas of the college on the basis that I am a 'trusted visitor'.

The college is now part of a group of colleges and this larger group does not have a 'trusted visitor' category in its more restrictive protocol. Consequently I and my fellow trustees must now be escorted from the reception desk to our meeting place within the building. Ironically this week I was escorted by a new junior member of staff and I had to give her directions to my destination!

Over the years we have found it imperative to have a tutor standing behind the shoulder of someone taking their first steps in counting places rather than ringing-by-numbers. The choice of words is crucial too. Saying something like "You're in 3rds over the fourth" is too confusing and is difficult to digest quickly.
Better if the tutor just counts the places out loud and extends an arm towards the 'target' bell. The visual prompt will be picked up almost instantly. If more guidance is needed, then try "Fourth place over Fred," in order not to overwhelm the learner with too many numbers.

Picking up Alison's comment about mileage, the paltry 45p/mile allowed by HMRC is little more than half the actual cost of running a car. Take depreciation, insurance, a regular service, fuel, cost of one tyre per year and perhaps toss in an MOT test and divide the total by your annual mileage. In my case the answer is 84p/mile. One solution might be to double my mileage in order to reduce the pence-per-mile but since retirement and the recent Covid lockdowns, my annual mileage continues to reduce.

I'm not sure that Simon's suggestion of a standard rate agreed with the CofE would work. I't wouldn't seem right to charge the same for a rural R&CC doubles band as it does for an eight, ten ot twelve bell band.

We currently charge £100 for upto six bells and pay out £10 per rope for ringing after the service. The surplus goes into the tower/rope fund.

We had all the same points made when the cost of petrol rose from 60p/gallon to £1/gallon. Messages of doom permeated the Ringing World - "The end is nigh . . . district meetings will be killed off . . . what about our senior members who can't afford it . . ." and so on.

When I started ringing petrol was around 4s.10p (24p) per gallon, that's around 5p per litre and I put 4 gallons into the tank of my 1954 Ford Popular for less than an a quid.Things change, life moves on and we are still ringing.

When my firm printed annual reports for a score or more of the country's guilds and associations, I noted the relative costs. Oviously it varies with the number of copies - more copies reduces the cost per report - and the number of pages - more pages increases the cost. There is a correlation between membership and peal pages; more members usually results in more peals.

The Scottish Assoc was the most frugal (naturally!) with only a dozen or so towers and a comparatively low membership their report was low on numbers and low on pages. At the other end of the scale, the Yorkshire Assoc's order for 1500 reports of around 100 pages was one of the largest.

I recall that the average price per page in a report ranged from around 80p to £1.20.

Marske-by-the-sea has 'bendy' steel stays on the two trebles, each bell weighs around 2cwt. With neighbouring towers all having bells with tenors of around 1 tonne, there was a fear that visitors to Marske might overpull and the throughput of stays migh be somewhat tiresome!
Don't know the exact specification but the original stays supplied by Taylors were fashioned out of old cart springs!

That was our initial intention but the church stands too close to the highway and there was a serious risk of scores of toys & teddy bears landing in the road.
We used a long rope to the end of which we attached half a dozen bent-wire hooks, to haul the toys to the top of the tower. We had thought of using a basket but there was a risk of the toys fallling out if/when the basket bumped the tower wall on the way up.One of our ringers is a keen climber and he loaned us one of his old ropes and a dozen caribeeners (to clip the toys to the rope for the slide down).

If your tower roof is easily accessible, then consider a sponsored 'Death Slide' for soft toys. It costs next to nothing to run, all you need is half a dozen volunteers. Minimum sponsorship is £5 and a prizes to the two or three kids with the highest sponsored amounts. We raised £600 in about 90 minutes one Sunday afternoon - coupled with 'Tea on the Lawns' by one of the church's ladies' groups. Message me for set-up details and H&S concerns.